Magic Jar and Undead - couple of q's, looking for some a's

[Cor Azer]

Hadn't really thought about this before, and had to throw out some spur of the moment decisions during the game last night.

Magic Jar allows you to see the "souls" of sentient undead - they'll be indicated by negative energy. Thus, you can potentially take over the body of such an undead.

Q the one: If you take over the "body" of an incorporeal undead, what, if anything, are you taking over?

Going with the above, I see a negative energy "soul", know it's an undead, and Magic Jar into its body (corporeality matters not to this question).

Q the two: What creature type is the possessor now? If undead, can he be turned, rebuked, or commanded? Magic Jar mentions that you gain the physical abilities of the possessed body, but keep your own mental facilities. It ays not a whit about creature type.

 

[Thanee]

Q1 Well, an incorporeal body is still a body, you just replace the "soul".

Q2 Good question.

Intuitively, I'd say, that you count as undead for effects like turning or spells that affect undead, but your type does not actually change (kinda like Shroud of Undeath).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

About Q1, I'd rule that you cannot possess the body of an incorporeal creature since... it doesn't have a body!

By a strict word reading of the incorporeal subtype and magic jar, you cannot.
I would rule it this way, but not because of the strict word reading, just because I think it makes sense IMC.

Of course, you can just tinker as you like with the ideas of incorporeality and the ethereal plane and rule that you can indeed use magic jar, if you like.

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About Q2, I'd rule that you are treated as undead with regard to physical issues and as your own type with regard to mental issues.

For example, I think it makes sense that you are immune to critical hits while in the undead body, as well as poison, disease, etc... But I'd rule that you don't become immune to mind-affecting effects because your mind is unchanged.

About the negative energy... this is tricky. Probably I'd rule that you become subject to it, for some reasons like the corpse your are inhabiting is still powered or anyway pervaded with negative energy, even if your mind is not of an undead.

 

[Antoine]

Q1 : Looks like nothing prevents you from magic jarring into a sentient uncorporeal undead.

Q2 : Based on polymorph (which states you don't get Ex-SQ or Su of the assumed form but still get the type and subtype), I'd rule you now are an uncorporeal undead.

 

[green slime]

Well, straight off I'd prohibt taking over an incoporeal undead.

Secondly, I'd probably rule you couldn't take over even the corporeal undead. Undead are supposed to be immune to mind-affecting magic, death effects. Mind you, I haven't convinced myself yet. It is just that the idea does not sit well with me yet.

 

[Antoine]

Magic jar is plain necromancy.

No [mind affecting] in the spell description.

 

[Li Shenron]

Q1 : Looks like nothing prevents you from magic jarring into a sentient uncorporeal undead.

Well magic jar lets you take control of a body and incorporeal creatures don't have a physical body.

Now you may argue that since the book specifically says "physical" and the spell doesn't, you are allowed to "possess a ghost non-physical body" and imprison the ghost soul into the jar...

Do that if it pleases you, but I won't.

 

[Antoine]

I wouldn't allow magic jarring into a ghost since it dwells on another plane and I think you don't magic jar a plane away.

Even when it "manifests" it partially stays on the ethereal plane.

So I'd rule a ghost doesn't qualify.

 

[green slime]

Magic jar is plain necromancy.

No [mind affecting] in the spell description.

That would be because [mind-affecting] descriptor is found solely in the school of enchantment, and that descriptor is used nowhere else. Necromancy spells have no descriptors.

 

[Antoine]

That would be because [mind-affecting] descriptor is found solely in the school of enchantment, and that descriptor is used nowhere else.

It's used for most Phantasm spells and rare exceptions like "detect thoughts" or "color spray".