Magic System Discussion

[Priest_Sidran]

Hello, and welcome to the discussion on how to craft the impossible, a magic system that works like the stories that got us interested in the Game in the first place.

I am looking for ideas about how to capture the more naturalistic magic of the myriad of fantasy novels out there.

A few examples of the kind of magic system I am trying to create can be found in the Stories of Sharon Shinn (Thirteenth House, Mystic Rider), Ursula K. Leguin (Earthsea), Patricia McKilip (Riddlemaster of Hed), and most namely in the character of Gandalf the Grey.

The Magic system of the current rule set is not as interesting as even the worst fantasy novel, nor is it as fluid a system as some other rule sets.

I realise that as an RPG somethings must suffer for the ability to quantify things but I do not see magic as something that can be easily quantified.

Any ideas would be much appriciated, thank you.

 

[Brazeku]

Weeeellll, you could make it skill based.

Say, just have a "Magic" category, with subcats like "fire", "healing" etc; and then have a list of DCs for various effects (or if you want to go more freeform, magnitudes of effects). I think magnitude would be cooler, then you could be all "I want to make a hummingbird out of fire", and it would be easy because that's really barely doing a damn thing.

If you want to limit uses per day, a cumulative DC penalty would be effective enough, although it would have to be graded.

You'd have to rework the skill system so this wasn't generally abusable, though. Either that or have the two in separate lists (so you wouldn't use skill points to buy magic ranks, I guess you'd use 'magic points' or something).

EDIT: nevermind that last bit!

 

[AbeTheGnome]

There are many, many, many magic systems out there, some compatible with d20, some not. Before you go out of your way and put in the truly massive amount of grief and toil that comes from creating a new system from scratch (believe me, I've been there), check out the following magic systems to see if they're right for you:

Spell Points from UA
True Sorcery
Conan d20
Ars Magica
Elements of Magic
Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Midnight
WoD's Mage

 

[Priest_Sidran]

I have been spending some time with Ars Magica, and I like some parts and dislike others. I have been thinking along the lines of the Shadowrun (for the limits of the spell system) that being one based off of you set the power which effects the amount of fatigue you suffer from casting a spell. A happy medium between the two systems, and that of what WoTC has already given us, I think might very well be plausible.

Hermetic magic (wizards if you will) is staying though I think to adjust to the rest of it I may have to tweak the Sorcerer, or leave it alone and make a Mage Class specifically for the Shadowrun like (apptitude based) setup.

I have also considered making some form of prioritization chart for a character to help limit the number of magic users in the world.

My ultimate goal is to have a world in which the Arcane magic is very much a natural part of the world and not something outside, or beside it. Magic to me should come from the force of personality or essence of a character rather than be something that any bumbling hedge wizard can pick up with enough writ and practice.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

I believe you'll need to clarify some things about what you want mechanically in order to get helpful responses. First of all, do you want to change the way that spells are learned, the way that spells are cast, or both?

 

[Priest_Sidran]

The simplest thing to do is to add a new mechanic into the mix, such as Magical Apptitude, (similar to the Magical Rating of Shadowrun), and add the force from shadowrun, pretty much word for word.

This changes things in three ways
1. Aptitude determs if a character even has what it takes to become a natural user of the arts.
It could also very well determine whether a character is able to do advanced magic
I.E. A character with a Magical Aptitude of 16 or better is allowed knowledge skills in schools of magic such as (necromancy), or (thaumaturgy), or (conjuration (creation) spells.
2. Add in force, from shadow run, A character's aptitude is for all intensive purposes a new ability which determines Force ( a new mechanic similar to a save perhaps).

The way a spell would be cast then is as thus a character wants to cast a 4th level spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard school or an equivelently powerful spell (cast on the fly via Ars Magica style rules) the Player would set his force at 4 meaning that he is using that amount of force which does not regenerate quickly (1 per 2 hours of rest). He then roles a Spellcraft check DC Spell level + 2 (actually 1.5) for every point of force spent to see if the spell is successful.

The kicker is that a Character with a low force can still "set" that force at a higher level E.G. using the example that the player has a force of 4, he can set it as far as 9th. However for each 1 point higher than his force rating he sets a spell the more difficult his spell DC get, and the more risky the casting becomes. A character wanting to cast a 9th level spell who has a rating of 4 would have to beat a Spell check DC of 17 not necessarily hard, but he would have to also make a Fortitude Save DC 10+ 2 for each level of force over the rating of the character +1 or succumb to the effects of fatigue. In this case casting a 9th level spell could be a potential life ender if a character chose to cast such spells at an in opportune time.

So far this is how I see using the old rules that are already in place with new ones might work for the Balancing end of it.

As for the free form spell casting I think that these very same rules could work for such a circumstance, though the rating of the spell that is being spontaneously generated is likely to be a point of derision between the DM and the Players.

The easy answer to this is that th DM's words the Law when it comes to the end result of judging the equivelent level of a spell.

It seems more complicated to do it this way but with some refinement I could use it without to much guilt.

One thing I would enforce though is that every character who becomes a Mage, Sorcerer, or Wizard must choose (not from schools of magic per se) those areas of magic which he the strongest in and those which he is weaker in.

 

[Priest_Sidran]

I doubt that the above post will clarify anything better, so briefly I am interested in leaving the spells, and the casting system in place (mostly) but changing the way people use the spells, and more aptly the focus of how and why they use them.


I also want to have a more free form style of magic in the world, one that is not limited by a numeric amount of spells known, but on how many a character's ability with the art of Magic allows him to use. All of which I want to do with out giving spell points because that becomes over abused by players who use it improperly.

I want spellcraft to play a more pivotal role in the way it is used.

I want their to be a quantification on the natural ability of a magic user, and that he has a limit on how he can do things, but at the same time is able to adjust the magic to a circumstance rather than being stuck with a useless spell at a critical moment because of a Rule.

I Want magic to be a "Role" in my world, and not a "Rule"

All of that so that I can capture the feel of the fantasy novel, rather than this dried up excuse of a system that we have.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

First... go back and read Tolkien to see the 'spells' actually cast by Gandalf the Grey....

IIRC, in The Hobbit he cast... Pyrokinesis and....umm... lots of alchemy and fast talking. In this book he is more of a Merlin {the books} character where knowledge is power.
{an argument could be made for a use of Hyponosis with the Trolls..but the duration was a couple hours...}

Second.. I think your idea has merits... something that perhaps the next version of Elements of Magic {EoM) can go to.

Use skills to gain access to the various elements that make up the spell, and use your sugested Magical Aptitude/Force as a means to cast it.

Using EoM keeps people from estimating spell costs and using skill points forces a focus into specific areas. You could emulate the various classes by having certain skills cross-class or exlusive.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

Well, I briefly tinkered with a system that worked like this:

Every spell has a DC equal to 10+(spell level X 2), and a caster must succeed on a caster level check in order to cast the spell. Specialist wizards got a +1 bonus on the check (or maybe it was +2, I can't remember) on spells from their chosen school. There was no set number on spells known, but magic was very rare in that game, and finding a magical scroll and learning a spell from it was a quest in itself. Basically, learning spells used the rules of arcane magical writings from the PHB, and the only limit on the number of spells that mages learned was what I gave them access to.

I scrapped the system because players were unhappy about wasting a combat round attempting to cast a spell that didn't happen. If my players aren't happy, I'm not doing my job.

I toyed with the idea of using the same casting mechanic, and instead of a failed check resulting in a failed casting, it would instead cause nonlethal damage equal to (spell level X 2)-1, but I never implemented it. C'est la vie.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Hmm..

Partially connected thought... use a Hit Point like stat:

Spell points {SP} are gained with Caster level, full casters get 1D10 SP, partial casters gain 1D6 SP. Your spellcasting atribute adds to this.

To cast a spell you spend however many SP as the spell costs {in EoM this is MP cost, in Core this is level x2} and succeed at a Spellcraft check DC 10 + SP cost. Failure doubles the cost of the spell. If the casting of the spell depletes your available SP, the excess is taken as lethal damage. You cannot normally cast spells without available SPs.

Then..
If using more SP than your caster level, you have to make a Will save against DC 10 + SP or become fatigued.

If using more SP than you character level, you additinally have to make a Fort save against DC 10 + SP or take non-lethal damage equal to the SP cost.

SP regenerate at 1/8th total per hour of total rest., or at a set time of day if a divine caster.

In this manner a high level caster can reliably cast a number of low level spells..and a low level mage can try to burn through a high powered spell.

Example: Mage casting a Fireball, 3rd level spell by a 7th level caster who has 10 SP remaining. SP cost is 6.
If the spell craft check fails against DC 16 {approx 30% chance}, the SP cost increases to 12.

Since 12 is higher than the caster level *and* character level, the Mage needs to make 2 saves, a Will save and a Fort save vs DC 22. {approx 80% and 95% chance respectively}
If he fails both, he becomes fatigued and takes 22 non-lethal points of damage.
Since he only had 10 SPs remaining, his pool is reduced to 0 SP and he takes 2 HPs of lethal damage.

The use of Spell Points in this manner simply put a cap on the number of spells per day to avoid mages tossing off *one* huge spell to end battles.... but the option still exists if they are willing to possibly die from the attempt.
- Said 7th level caster could try to push out a 20 point spell {9th level}, DC 30 is about a 5% chance of success.. failing would set the Will and Fort saves at DC 40.. out of reach at his level. So he would be almost guarenteed to be fatigued, KO'd and possibly dead.


This would require only minimal tweaking to the current system...I may try this out with my current campaign if the Mage goes for EoM.. since there is only minor changes to this, added benefit of being able to overcast balanced by potential of fatigue/damage...