Magic System Discussion

[Priest_Sidran]

Hmm..

Partially connected thought... use a Hit Point like stat:

Spell points {SP} are gained with Caster level, full casters get 1D10 SP, partial casters gain 1D6 SP. Your spellcasting atribute adds to this.

To cast a spell you spend however many SP as the spell costs {in EoM this is MP cost, in Core this is level x2} and succeed at a Spellcraft check DC 10 + SP cost. Failure doubles the cost of the spell. If the casting of the spell depletes your available SP, the excess is taken as lethal damage. You cannot normally cast spells without available SPs.

Then..
If using more SP than your caster level, you have to make a Will save against DC 10 + SP or become fatigued.

If using more SP than you character level, you additinally have to make a Fort save against DC 10 + SP or take non-lethal damage equal to the SP cost.

SP regenerate at 1/8th total per hour of total rest., or at a set time of day if a divine caster.

In this manner a high level caster can reliably cast a number of low level spells..and a low level mage can try to burn through a high powered spell.

Example: Mage casting a Fireball, 3rd level spell by a 7th level caster who has 10 SP remaining. SP cost is 6.
If the spell craft check fails against DC 16 {approx 30% chance}, the SP cost increases to 12.

Since 12 is higher than the caster level *and* character level, the Mage needs to make 2 saves, a Will save and a Fort save vs DC 22. {approx 80% and 95% chance respectively}
If he fails both, he becomes fatigued and takes 22 non-lethal points of damage.
Since he only had 10 SPs remaining, his pool is reduced to 0 SP and he takes 2 HPs of lethal damage.

The use of Spell Points in this manner simply put a cap on the number of spells per day to avoid mages tossing off *one* huge spell to end battles.... but the option still exists if they are willing to possibly die from the attempt.
- Said 7th level caster could try to push out a 20 point spell {9th level}, DC 30 is about a 5% chance of success.. failing would set the Will and Fort saves at DC 40.. out of reach at his level. So he would be almost guarenteed to be fatigued, KO'd and possibly dead.


This would require only minimal tweaking to the current system...I may try this out with my current campaign if the Mage goes for EoM.. since there is only minor changes to this, added benefit of being able to overcast balanced by potential of fatigue/damage...

I appriciate this idea more than you know, and it may very well solve the issue for the favor of implimenting these new rules.

Though I prolly would call it Essence after Shadowrun, or Witchcraft RPG, which has been another influence on my choices.


Essence: Is in effect the amount of spiritual energy a character has in its reservoir, an attribute that quantifies the amount of Vitality Points a character has. (Aptitude is a part of this new attribute) Unlike other attributes which are able to be raised by earned ability points Essence is not able to be raised in this way. Some magic items, and/or feats may awaken more potential but what a character starts the game with is more than likely what their stuck with. It is after all their "natural" ability to use magic.

Vitality works like hit points but on a mental, and spiritual level, it encompasses subdual damage, and fatigue from exhaustion, or from casting magic. A character whose vitality becomes zero falls unconscious and must make a Fortitude save DC 20 or go into a coma. A character who falls into a coma can be restored in one of three ways, he may make an additional save 1 per day for 1d4 days after he falls into a coma to break out of it, he may be healed by a Cure serious wounds spell, or by drinking a potion of vitality restoration.

Force: works off of Essence a characters Force is equal to their Essence modifier (if any)
A character can spend 4 skill points to raise their force by .5 as if it were a cross class skill.
Force is able to be applied in to ways, a character can use up to the maximum total of his force x3 in order to cast spells of a higher level than he would normally be allowed. Doing so is risky (see below). To cast a spell a character must set a force equal to the level of the spell he is trying to cast. (For free-form spells this can go higher than 9th level). His force works as a way of determining his caster level, for example character with force of 3 has a caster level equivalency to a 3rd level caster. Using force however costs a character vitality drain. The normal being 1 point for every to force points used to cast the spell.

Free-Form Casting: As a full round action a caster with an essence of 15 or higher can cast a free form spell which is an on the spot spell created for a single purpose at a -2 Spellcraft check penalty. If a spellcraft check fails while a character is attempting to cast a free form spell her Fort save DC doubles, though the damage to her vitality remains the same.
A free form casting works in the exact same way as a regular casting, with the exception that the set force of the spell is its spell level. A Caster who casts above his force (and thus his caster level) risks injury or death and must make a Fortitude save DC 15+ spell level
(damage for failure is on a sliding scale that goes upwards for every point of force used over the actual force a character possess)

Regular casting: A caster can cast any spell from their class spell lists (in the PHB, elsewhere) provided that he A) has enough force to pay for one half of the total needed, and b) has seen the spell in use (I.E. knows the spell). A character can still set his force higher than his actual score is but he risks damage doing so (see Free-Form Casting above)

Spellcraft Checks: Spellcraft checks are made to see if a spell is successfully cast, only spells that are instantaneous (sp?) are not required to make such a check. A spellcraft check, that fails requires a character to succeed at a Fortitude save DC 15+spell level or take a backlash of vitality damage (again based on this sliding scale of damage) If a character fails on a check made for a spell for which he has not used extra force he takes 1d4 points of Vitality damage.

1 Point over Force =1d6
2 Points over Force =1d8
3 Points over Force =1d10
4 Points over Force =1d12
5 Points over Force =2d8
6 Points over Force =2d10
7 Points over Force =2d12
8 Points over Force =3d8
9 Points over Force =3d10

(Tell me if I got this wrong)

Drain, Fatigue, Vitality damage: All three are interchangeable for the same thing, the character takes an amount of mental damage from spells, even those that he successfully casts drain 1 point for every 2 points of Force used.

Addiction, Aging, and Other Drawbacks: Characters who use magic for evil quickly become addicted to the power it gives them, each time a character casts a spell with an evil descriptor in it or which has a harming effect he must make a will save equal to the 10 + spell level or become addicted (addicted characters take a -2 penalty to further saves made to resist such casting, and a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks made to cast such a spell) the negative effects of addiction stack, while the positive fade (after four castings of such as spell the positive bonus to spellcraft checks drops to a +1). A character who spends more than half of his vitality points while casting a single spell ages 1d10+5 years though he remains outwardly the same. A character who dies while casting a spell has a 10% chance of not returning when a raise dead, or resurrection spell are cast. Each time such an event occurs the amount raises by another 10% (to a maximum of 50%), a character who dies again potentially comes back with some new flaw (assigned at the time by the DM).

Metaphysical Skills:

A character who has a 15 or better essence is able to take any two metaphysical skills as class skills. Though only one can be taken from those skills that mimic the schools of a Wizard.

Some examples of this are

Second Sight: A character can detect incorporeal undead better with this skill. (more information as it becomes available)

Sixth Sense: A character is capable of seeing future events (or feeling premonitions about them)

Empathic Sense: A character can determine the emotions of a target of this skills check a critical success can even determine what the emotion is connected to (I.E. an NPC's attitude towards the player, etc)

Shifting: (Limited shapeshifting ability): A character who takes this skill must declare a medium or smaller creature which he then is able to become for a total of his skill Ranks +1 hour per day. A character can stay in this form longer than this total time but each hour spent doing so he takes 1d4 points of vitality drain, after 8 points are lost in this way he must make a Will save DC 20+ 1 for each hour spent in this form beyond the limit or " forget" how to return to his original form. A character can take this skill multiple times (to a total of three) each time he does so he must declare a new medium or smaller animal.

Elementalism: A character with this skill must declare which element he focuses on, for all spells that he casts which have this element in their descriptor he gains a +1 bonus on Spellcraft checks, and lowers the DC for vitality by -1 point. He can only take a maximum of 4 ranks in this skill for each element he may choose. Skill points spent in this way cost 2 for every 1 rank. He may take the skill for different elements (to a total of 2 elements). A character who takes Skill focus for this skill gains a 1d4 points of damage on any spell which he casts that also causes damage.

Suggest some more please....


Well there is the basics so far, any questions sugggestions, etc.

 

[DogBackward]

Something I worked on a long time ago, it worked simply enough.

First, this was made for the classic Wizard, and so I only tested it with the Wizard class.

To begin with, you gain a certain amount of ranks in the eight schools. I moved each universal spell to a different school, the one in which it most fit. At first level, you gain 5 ranks, then you gain three ranks at every even level, and two ranks at every odd level. This ends up with a total of 53 ranks to spread among the eight schools of magic. You can't have any school with more ranks than you have Wizard levels.

Your rank in a school determines two things, your caster level and the maximum level of spells you can cast from that school. So, if you have Evocation Rank 3, you have a CL of 3 for Evocation spells, and you can cast up to 2nd level spells from the Evocation school.

This makes for a very dynamic system. You can either go the general path, and have middling casting power in all the schools, or specialize in one or two schools at the cost of the others. If you choose to truly specialize, you can only have 20th caster level in 2 schools, leaving 13th in a third. If you only want 9th level spells, you can only get them for three schools, leaving a fourth school at only CL 2.

I created a 7th ability score, Power, and gave everybody 45 points to create their characters. This helps balance the caster/non-caster thing, as spellcasters will have to use more points to cast effectively. Your Power score acts as your primary casting ability.

You gaina Mana Pool equal to 1/2 your Wizard level plus your Power bonus. So, at level 6 with a Power of 16, you would have 6 Mana at any one time. Your Mana regenerates at the rate of 1 per minute, so long as you do not cast any spells in that minute. Witha successful Concentration check, DC 15, made as a full-round actoin, you may recover 1 Mana, +1 per 5 points by which you beat the DC.

You may cast any spell of up to the maximum level allowed by your rank in the appropriate school. Thus, if you have Evocation Rank 7, you can cast any Evocation spell of 4th level or lower. The only restriction is that it must be on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list. You could also create feats to allow casters to cast spells from other spell lists, if you like.

Casting a spell requires one Mana per spell level and a successful Spell Power check, DC 10 +Spell Level +Caster Level. Spell Power rolls are your Wizard level plus your Power. Since the DC is based on your caster level, you can voluntarily lower your CL in order to make it easier to cast a spell. If you fail the check, the spell is still cast, but at -2 to the save DC, and -2 to the Caster level. If the caster level is reduced to below the minimum CL required to cast the spell, the spell is lost. Thus, you can lose a difficult spell if you roll badly, but the cahnces of losing your lower level spells is minimal, reflecting your training and familiarity.

Optionally, you can implement a fatigued/exhausted/Unconscious result if you fail a Fort save after failing a Spell Power check by 5 or more, if that's the way you want to go. I used it once, and it worked all right. If you're fatigued, you take a -2 penalty to Spell Power checks and Fort saves to resist the effects of failed spells, and you take a -4 if you're exhausted.

This all comes together to make a very free-form magic system. The limitations aren't quite enough to balance out the added power, but if you have mature players who know how not to go overboard, you should be fine. Also, it may take a little watching the spells your players will want to cast. Certain spells may not be appropriate with this spellcasting method.

The basic idea is that you don't have to know the exact words and motions for a spell, you jsut have to know the basics of that school. Different spells of the same school aren't all that different, and if you know how to cast one, it's not that hard to modify a few phrases and add a twist here and there and change it to another.

Also, if you're still too worried about the power level, change all non-Swift/Immediate spells to a casting time of at least 1 round. That helps a lot, in my experience.

 

[Choranzanus]

Hello, and welcome to the discussion on how to craft the impossible, a magic system that works like the stories that got us interested in the Game in the first place.

I am looking for ideas about how to capture the more naturalistic magic of the myriad of fantasy novels out there.

A few examples of the kind of magic system I am trying to create can be found in the Stories of Sharon Shinn (Thirteenth House, Mystic Rider), Ursula K. Leguin (Earthsea), Patricia McKilip (Riddlemaster of Hed), and most namely in the character of Gandalf the Grey.

I think the most important is to break the "spells per day" paradigm. If you can cast a powerful spell once a month, you will not live in a high magic world (or a D&D like world, to be more to the point), even thought the spells are still the same.

I played in a homebrewed game where magic worked as follows:
You had a mana pool that was composed of several mana pools each replenishing at a different rate. You had "very quick mana", that replenished almost imediatelly;"quick mana", that replenished about in a minute;"slow mana", that replenished in a month etc. etc.
So you could cast a lot of cantrips, but occasionaly you would cast a truly earth-shattering spell, to save the day. This gave the wizard very Gandalf like qualities, in my experience.
Since this was a point buy, you could start with different combinations of "quick mana","slow mana" etc. making different style of wizards.

 

[GreatLemur]

There are many, many, many magic systems out there, some compatible with d20, some not. Before you go out of your way and put in the truly massive amount of grief and toil that comes from creating a new system from scratch (believe me, I've been there), check out the following magic systems to see if they're right for you:

Spell Points from UA
True Sorcery
Conan d20
Ars Magica
Elements of Magic
Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Midnight
WoD's Mage

Very good point, and I'd add Iron Heroes, True20, Talislanta d20, Thieves' World to that list. I love the Thieves' World magic system. Also, the True Sorcery / Black Company system is pretty cool. I'd love to see somebody d20-up the Mage system, but that's almost like saying "I'd like some hot, dry water."

 

[Priest_Sidran]

Hello, sorry to not have posted earlier,

After some long hard work I have solidified the system I am going to use...Its a mix between Ars Magica, and Shadowrun 3rd Edition, a few other small bits from other sources thrown in,

Once I have completely written it I will post it here for your critique,

Thank you.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I'd love to see somebody d20-up the Mage system, but that's almost like saying "I'd like some hot, dry water."

Sounds like an interesting idea, why not give it a try? I liked the Exalted 2e battleque system and ported it to d20. So converting from WW storyteller products isn't impossible it just takes a bit more work than the usual.

 

[papastebu]

This idea is one of my pets. This is what I have come up with that is within d20 system parameters.

Wizard Casting:
1d20 + Intelligence Modifier + class level + Miscellaneous = casting check.
10 + Spell level + (spell-level - class level) = DC for casting check.
An additional modifier is attached to multiple castings of the same spell.
It increases the DC by the spell's level times the number of the casting, i.e.g.; second casting of a third-level spell would add six to the DC, and the third casting would add an additional nine to the DC.
This additional difficulty is mitigated by the wizard's level and by rounds spent not casting.
A fourth-level wizard could cast a second third-level spell with impunity, but the third consecutive casting would add +8 to the DC.
Each round in which the wizard casts no spells reduces any built up resistance by one.
Resistance builds up on a per-spell basis, only, not affective of the consecutive casting of all spells, but only of a single spell at a time.

Spells:
Wizard spells advance independently, much as skill ranks do, only the spell-level determines the efficacy and power of the spell, and its subsequent difficulty, not the ability of the wizard to use it.
The wizard can add "spell points" to a spell at each level up, strengthening the spell and making it more difficult to cast.
Wizards can cast any spell they know, subject to the resistance and casting difficulty as described above.

Spell-Points:
The wizard character gains a number of spell points each level that is equal to his class level plus his intelligence modifier, plus two.
The first level of any spell is one point to learn. The second level is two points to learn, the third is three, etc.
A single spell point buys, generally;
A single die of damage for a damage spell, such as magic missile or fireball.
A single range increment for distance spells, 15 feet for hurled spells and 20 feet for a ray.
A single area increment for area-effect spells, which is 10 feet.
A die-increment damage boost for future damage-dice added to the spell.
A single target for targeted/line-of-sight spells.
A single effect for effect spells, or an elemental descriptor for purposes of determining what is affected, i.e.g; invisibility and mage armor.
Note that the incremental costs are for building spells, and that each part of a spell's capability is bought with a single point.
For example, if a fifth-level wizard wants to create a spell that does 2d4 force damage to a single target at a line-of-sight range, then it would cost 5 spell-points to do so.
One point for each die of damage, two points for the force--see below--descriptor, and one point for the line-of-sight/targeted nature of the spell.
If a first-level wizard wanted to create the same spell, it would add four points to the cost, due to the disparity between education and difficulty.
If a tenth-level wizard wished to create the same spell, then it would cost only four points, but if a 13th or higher level wizard did so it would only cost one.
The spell would start life as a fifth-level spell, and would require six points to increase to sixth level. It would when improved, however, do 4d4 damage at line-of-sight.

All existing spells may be learned at a wizard's first level, bearing in mind that a fireball, at third level, would cost a first-level wizard 8 spell points to learn, unless he or she wanted to get it as a first-level spell, with 1d6 damage, at 15-foot range, 5-foot area.

I account for the disparity between created spells and existing spells by saying that all the bugs have been worked out of the ones that the wizard is taught, as opposed to the ones that a wizard creates, which are "works-in-progress" so to speak.

For spells with multiple effects, each effect is considered a level, and so can be added as spell points are spent if the player wants to purchase such spells as first-level spells. Bear in mind, a first-level spell is not as effective as higher-level spells are, and it might work better to get some spells at the levels in existing sources.

Power: descriptor whose definition includes "does not miss if target can be seen", "kills, restores, commands, affects target immediately unless save or resistance is made" "a successful save versus this causes 'spell-level times d4 damage/healing, or will negates", "requires touch unless otherwise noted", costs eight points to acquire for a created spell.
Force: descriptor whose definition includes "does not miss if target can be seen", "has d4 damage die", and "stops physical damage/effects up to the force-effect's bonus", costs two spell points to acquire for a created spell.
Energy: includes the following; heat, electricity, concussion/motion, consumption, and has d6 damage-die increment.
Entropy: includes the following; cold, direct damage, poison, acid, decay, and has d6 damage increment.

 

[dungeondweller]

Take a look at the Sovereign Stone campaign setting for an interesting take on revamping the magic system. I definitely agree that the "tome of spells" approach is cumbersome and archaic and needs to be replaced with something sleeker and more dynamic.

Similar to what someone else has already mentioned, I would like to rework the magic system to use Feats (Metamagic, Cast Evocation; Metamagic, Cast Illusion) and Skills (Arcane Talent, Arcane Focus, Arcane Power) to bring magic use into the "d20" era from the "Basic D&D" era.

BUT doing so and ensuring balance would require a great deal more work and time than I have to commit, so the plan is to use Sovereign Stone for our next campaign and modify it on the fly if we need to.

 

[Priest_Sidran]

I have very nearly given this idea up because of the amount of shear work it involves. I am close to being on the right track. Later a friend and I are going to revamp the amount of loose text I have generated and rework it into a dynamic D20 Magic System effect.

 

[Kaodi]

Wizards' need spell books, but that does not mean that wizards' need spell books to use magic. A spell book would be formula for optimizing spells, so that Rex the Thunder Mage *knows* how to cast lightning bolt, but he needs it in his spell book for reference so that it does d6 damage instead of d4, or even d3.