Magic Weapons and Keyword Inheritance

[DracoSuave]

Yes, that is how it works.

On a side note: Oddly enough, with CustServ's other ruling, using the Frost Weapon's at-will ability doesn't give the power the keyword, so if not for this keyword inheritance, you could be doing all cold damage with a power with only the fire keyword... does that sound a bit stupid to anyone else?

On further reading, my excerpt is out of context. The excerpt comes from the description on using powers of items. So, item-keyword inheritance comes from the keyword of the item power used, provided the item power and the class power are used at the same time.

Looking at Flaming Weapon, it has two powers, one at-will, and one daily.

The daily power modifies what happens as you hit with another power. Ergo, it is used at the same time as that other power, thusly, the -resulting effect- inherits -all- keywords. Notice, the language does NOT say the -power- gets the keyword, but that the -result- -has- the keyword.

Awesome.

The other power, the at-will one, is a free-action as well, and modifies the result of actions taken. The only difference in terms of timing is one is triggered by an action you take, and the other has no trigger at all.

Therefore, if the at-will ability is active when you're using another power, they are therefore an item power and a class power being used at the same time... and therefore... the effect inherits the item power's keyword.

So, regarding the use of a cold weapon and another weapon on something wintertouched, with Twin Strike.

This is where inheritance gets a bit tricky.

Wintertouched triggers when you use a cold power on a vulnerable creature. That's important to note: When you use a cold power.

In order for it to trigger, you must use a power... ANY power, with the Cold keyword.

So, twin strike... it has the Martial and Weapon keywords. You're using a frost weapon and decide to use it's at-will ability to make it deal cold damage. The other weapon is non-energy damage based and irrelevant to this discussion.

The attack you make with the other weapon does not deal cold damage, nor trigger Wintertouched, because it is not Twin Strike that gets the Cold Keyword.

The attack you make with the frost weapon -does- deal cold damage because of the effect of the weapon. However, it does not have the Cold keyword, because you're not using any power -on the enemy- with the Cold keyword. You've used it on the weapon itself, not the enemy. This means that Wintertouched won't trigger, because you never used a power with the Cold keyword on the enemy.

But what if you use the daily power?

The daily power applies an effect -to the enemy.- It even has the word 'target' in it so you know that it targets something and otherwise behaves -exactly- like an attack power in that regard.

So does Wintertouched trigger? Yes. Not off of Twin Strike itself, but off of the Frost Weapon daily power that targets it.

Do notice this however......

If the feat triggered off being affected by a cold -effect- or by cold -damage- (like vulnerability does) then in -that- case, both instances would trigger it without a problem.


Another example, in a different direction.

Let's say I used the daily power of a Duelist's Weapon with Brute Strike.

Brute Strike has the Reliable keyword, so if I miss, I recharge that power.

However, if I miss with a Brute Strike with the daily power of the weapon active, the weapon's daily power doesn't gain the Reliable keyword and recharge. The total -effect- is Reliable (if somehow a monster had Vulnerable 5 vs Reliable, that might matter) but Reliable doesn't go to the individual powers making up the effect.

 

[Green Knight]

So I get the damage bonus from Astral Fire when I use a Flaming Sword? Sweet. One question, though.

the power deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

Let's say I have Astral Fire and make an attack that does both fire and radiant damage. Do I get the damage bonus once or twice? I'm guessing once, but I just want to be sure.

 

[GoLu]

Let's say I have Astral Fire and make an attack that does both fire and radiant damage. Do I get the damage bonus once or twice? I'm guessing once, but I just want to be sure.

Even if you did get it twice, the feat bonus wouldn't stack with itself.

 

[DracoSuave]

So I get the damage bonus from Astral Fire when I use a Flaming Sword? Sweet. One question, though.



Let's say I have Astral Fire and make an attack that does both fire and radiant damage. Do I get the damage bonus once or twice? I'm guessing once, but I just want to be sure.

Actually, you only get the damage when you use the power that has the fire or radiant keyword. Only the daily power does damage.

Technically, if you use the daily of the flaming weapon with a radiant power like a pally gets, the feat's bonus gets applied twice... but only counted once, because you're using two different powers, triggering it twice, but the bonus is a named bonus (+1 feat bonus) and therefore does not stack.

However, you'd apply the damage bonus to all damage from both powers that you roll dice for.

 

[DemonLord57]

...a lot of stuff...

Huh? No, using a weapon that has an item power that has a keyword for a class or racial power grants you the keywords of the item power on the class or racial power.


It says, quite clearly,

When you use a magic item as
part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords
of the item’s power and the other power all apply. For
instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack
with a power that deals radiant damage, the power
deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

(emphasis mine)
So, when you use a magic item to use a racial or class power, (like a weapon or implement) you gain the keywords of the item's power in addition to the power you are using (the class or racial power).

Using a basic melee or basic ranged attack are not racial or class powers, so it doesn't apply there. However, on your class at-wills, it does apply.

 

[DemonLord57]

Actually, you only get the damage when you use the power that has the fire or radiant keyword. Only the daily power does damage.

Technically, if you use the daily of the flaming weapon with a radiant power like a pally gets, the feat's bonus gets applied twice... but only counted once, because you're using two different powers, triggering it twice, but the bonus is a named bonus (+1 feat bonus) and therefore does not stack.

However, you'd apply the damage bonus to all damage from both powers that you roll dice for.

You are wrong about the keywords being applied, see my above post.

For Astral Fire, it wouldn't get applied twice, because the feat says,

You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when you use a power that has the fire or radiant keyword.

So, does the power have the fire or radiant keyword? Yes, it has both, therefore it gets the bonus. Once. You are however right to say that if it happened to get applied twice, since they are both feat bonuses, only one would apply.

 

[Green Knight]

True enough. Thanks. Still, pretty cool to see that, with a Flaming sword, I'd be able to get the damage bonus for Astral Fire with attacks other then Holy Strike.

 

[Andor]

Are you sure of that ? I mean, ok, a keyword on a weapon is inherited when using the weapon WITH a power ...

But, if I understand well, the power of the Frost weapon is used "on" the weapon, to give it the ability to do frost damage; no power is used against a target - it's only an ATTACK [W] ... no power, no trigger of "wintertouched" feat ?

As a player, I hope i'm wrong, but ...

have a nice day

Nope, it's still a power. Everything is a power in 4e.

Look at the definition on page 287. "A basic attack is an at will power that everyone possess, regardless of class."

As for frost weapons according to the keywords discussion on page 55 if you get to choose the damage type you then apply that keyword to the power. So I'd have to say yes, Frost weapons allow for much cheese with Wintertouched/Lasting Frost. This cannot possibly be accidental on the part of the designers too. It's just too damm obvious. If it wasn't supposed to work they would have addressed it.

 

[DemonLord57]

Nope, it's still a power. Everything is a power in 4e.

Yep. The main question, though, is whether a basic attack is a "class or racial" power. It may be a too literal reading to say that it wouldn't apply if they weren't, but they were quite specific with the wording, so I don't think it's uncalled for.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item’s power and the other power all apply. For instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack with a power that deals radiant damage, the power deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

Keywords would seem to be pointless if they were not meant to be used in this way.

This is obviously the way that the designers decided to add the keyword of a weapons power to the weapon itself. Flaming weapons always do fire damage, radiant weapons always do radiant damage, and they trigger the abilities that are keyed off these specific keywords. This sorta thing has been going on in M:tG for quite a while, and actually makes adjudicating a new combo quite easy. I really like it, and while it is exposing me to the almost inevitable flaming because I bring up M:tG, I think that this is an elegant way to streamline a rules system while adding in meaningful choice and creating the possibility of interesting combos that aren't all that unbalancing. The interesting thing that we will have to wait to see is how WotC will handle the inevitable "whoops, that was way to powerful" combinations that will eventually arise. M:tG just banned those cards.

I actually think that there is currently a "whoops" combo that uses this little bit of rules text.

Elf(+2 to wis and reroll and attack roll /encounter)
Orb Wizard(-wis mod to saves)
Doomsayer(enemies roll 2 saves and take the lowest for fear effects)
Wand with Fear keyword
Dual Implement Mastery->Wand(+dex mod to attack with wand /encounter)
Spell Focus(-2 to saves for your spells)

This can give you a high chance to hit important enemies and apply a status effect that has a save at about 4% chance of success, leading to about 25 rounds of that status on average. Think Sleep and you get a pretty good chance to wipe out whole groups of creatures.