Magical adept level 1 spell.

[5ekyu]

I've played most of the official adventures put out by WOTC. And most encounters in those adventures feature enemies who primarily focus on melee attacks. And most feature dungeon like environments with relatively small rooms as a primary focus as well. So, I can only speak from experience, but given my experience is with the official adventures, I don't think it lacks representation.

Again, it varies with what criteria one wants to focus on.

In response to my observation about an owl within 30' of thecdnrmy bring vulnerable, you referenced both melee foes and enemies focused in melee.

I then specifically called out non-ranged adversaries. Basically, you seem to want to refute the vulnerability of the familiar at the ranges it needs to be to do its flyby help with "melee foes" at one point and use "melee focused" as your reference for assessment.

But my goal posts remain the same- what can attack and kill the familiar. See, that way, I font hsve to fuss with vague definitions of what "focused" means.

I wont claim to have run through all of the WotC adventures and done an exhaustive analysis, but I have read thru most of them, I borrow a lot for my homebrew.

Taking PotA as a case in point, looking thtubthrir monsters sction ehich fntsils mske of the key foes used thought the main plot, including their minions, it's like 5 to 1 ration between NPCs thst csn strike st a owl that is at 30' with a means of killing itand those who cannot. The ones that cannot are essentially their monks and heavy knights mostly.

So, of scenarios using those creatures specifically called out in the products core list - dedicated chapter - it would only be encounters that used only about 20% of those and only when it was just them.

Having also drawn more than a bit from that product, I can easily say that I would be shocked if "most " of their combat encounters of any significant challenge at all were actually gonna fit that bill. (So, not just counting fntries here, but also looking st how they were used,)

But, hey, if when you run them, most of the encounters festure only enemies who csnnot threaten the flyby familiars without ready actions - that can definitely help frame your viewpoints on familiars.

 

[Autumn Bask]

edit: you are also in the "my game is better and more true the "actual" rules than yours territory...

I don't think it's so much about whether your game is better, as it is whether your game is representative of most other players' experiences. There's the commonly understood paradigm for playing D&D, and then there are DM caveats. Most people when giving generalized balance advice place it in this "imaginary conventional scenario" so that there is some common basis for discussion about this game, which in reality can be an incredibly variable experience.

Based on all the campaigns I've played in, and am currently playing in, common practice is that PCs have upwards of 2000 to 7000 gold by 5th level. Also, most of them race past character levels 1-4, because most of us are experienced players and have gone through that song and dance so many times already.

That also seems to be the general assumption of most players on this board, as well as what most official adventures try to encourage. So, to give advice based on the assumption that PCs will be gold-starved is unlikely to be accurate for the average player.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think it's so much about whether your game is better, as it is whether your game is representative of most other players' experiences. There's the commonly understood paradigm for playing D&D, and then there are DM caveats. Most people when giving generalized balance advice place it in this "imaginary conventional scenario" so that there is some common basis for discussion about this game, which in reality can be an incredibly variable experience.

Based on all the campaigns I've played in, and am currently playing in, common practice is that PCs have upwards of 2000 to 7000 gold by 5th level. Also, most of them race past character levels 1-4, because most of us are experienced players and have gone through that song and dance so many times already.

That also seems to be the general assumption of most players on this board, as well as what most official adventures try to encourage. So, to give advice based on the assumption that PCs will be gold-starved is unlikely to be accurate for the average player.

Now deduct 10gp per encounter because the familiar dies everytime.
I guess it is about 12 encounters per level or so. That is about 500 gold. Yes. If that is what happens then it is about half of your share of 5000gp by level 5 in a 5 man party. Of course that is the worst case. But the familiar dying every other combat is not unrealistic if you put it in dangerous situations every round. So take that as warning.
I don't know if my game deviates so much from every other game, it might be. But it is entirely possible, especially at low levels that the DM will not tolerate a familiar granting advantage all the time doing nothing against that.

I also think if someone asks if it is a common tactic, you should also note downsides. I mean if the DM is not as lenient with the familiar as many other DMs seem to be, the person asking should know. So he should at least ask his DM how he handles it instead of asking stangers who might have wildly different playstyles.

 

[Riley37]

If I played a variant human with that feat, I'd prefer a spell which I'm likely to cast once, every session, and have that one casting make a difference.

I think the Life Cleric bonus on Goodberry is cheesy, because Goodberry is a Transmutation, rather than a healing Evocation, but the ruling is the ruling, and a level one Life Cleric, variant human, handing out super-goodberries, would be quite popular with the rest of the party. I suspect all ten berries would get eaten on most days of adventuring. Would total healing output exceed usage of the Healer feat? It might, depending on short rest usage.

Hex, sure, I'll get into a fight at least once on most days of adventuring, and it's great for grappling. Shield, same. I'll *want* it more than once, but it's still nice to have even once. Every time an attack hits my base AC and not my shielded AC, I'll ask myself "is this the attack most worth stopping?" If I use it to stop a 1d4 attack, and then a foe hits with a 2d6 attack, then whoops, I guessed wrong.

Find Familiar... I won't *cast* the spell, most days, or so I hope; I'll use the familiar as a scout, in many sessions, *unless that role is taken*, for example if there's a wizard or a chain pact warlock in the party, or a ranger with a companion who scouts, or a druid who wild shapes into a scouting form. So, depends on redundancy. Going from 0 familiars in the party to 1 is worthwhile. Going from 1 to 2 not so much, depending on use for advantage in combat.

Disguise Self, maybe in an urban intrigue campaign, not in a dungeon crawl campaign.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the Life Cleric bonus on Goodberry is cheesy, because Goodberry is a Transmutation, rather than a healing Evocation, but the ruling is the ruling, and a level one Life Cleric, variant human, handing out super-goodberries, would be quite popular with the rest of the party. .

Noce catch. If they added evocation to that feature we would not see that cheese again...

 

[Autumn Bask]

Now deduct 10gp per encounter because the familiar dies everytime.
I guess it is about 12 encounters per level or so. That is about 500 gold. Yes. If that is what happens then it is about half of your share of 5000gp by level 5 in a 5 man party. Of course that is the worst case. But the familiar dying every other combat is not unrealistic if you put it in dangerous situations every round. So take that as warning.
I don't know if my game deviates so much from every other game, it might be. But it is entirely possible, especially at low levels that the DM will not tolerate a familiar granting advantage all the time doing nothing against that.

I also think if someone asks if it is a common tactic, you should also note downsides. I mean if the DM is not as lenient with the familiar as many other DMs seem to be, the person asking should know. So he should at least ask his DM how he handles it instead of asking stangers who might have wildly different playstyles.

I agree. I'm not saying your perspective isn't valuable. It just isn't common practice or what the game is balanced around. The Wizard class tends to suffer in gold droughts due to the cost of scribing new spells. That, and resurrections are harder, but I would actually consider that a good thing.

What's odd to me is that everyone keeps suggesting the Owl as the quintessential "help action" familiar. I would say, having recently taken Magic Initiate on my Drow Beastmaster, it's the spider (to fit with my animal companion, a Giant Wolf Spider). First, they're great for scouting because they're much less noticeable outdoors (you can't really tell if a spider is looking at you or not, but with a bird or owl it's fairly obvious); and they're much more natural creatures to be found indoors, whereas NPCs can probably guess that that bird idling calmly on the bar-table is someone's familiar.

But secondly, if you keep it in your sleeve, nobody is going to know it's even there. You cannot target that which you don't know exists, so short of AoE spells, that little spider is safe.

Also, anyone who denigrates Find Familiar needs to remember the most important facet of the spell, which is that familiars are adorable. They are friends, not just tools.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

[MENTION=50015]Autumn[/MENTION]_bask

I didn't have the feeling you dismiss my perspective. I always think it is reasonable to adjucate the value of a certain feature or spell within your own game. I have played in games where a ribbon feature was worth more than any combat ability. Also actor and disguise self has saved the group many times. It was also used against the group resulting in a near TPK, a dead paladin and lost magic items.
I have also used the underrated dancing lights before treantmonk featured it in a video and highlighted the advantage.
I hate it when someone dismisses a concern telling me that my experience is only an outlier. This game practically consists of outliers and evaluating features in vacuum is a good start, but in an actual game it can be totally different.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Look what I happened to find when I clicked on the 5e button in this forum:

Level| Typical hoard treasure acquired (gp)
1|0
2|140
3|280
4|420
5|560
6|4500
7|8400
8|12,300
9|16,200
10|20,100
11|24,100
12|42,400
13|60,700
14|79,000
15|97,300
16|116,000
17|134,000
18|362,000
19|590,000
20|818,000

from this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402507-Deconstructing-5e-Typical-Wealth-by-Level&prefixid=dndnext&daysprune=-1

I don´t have to add more to the discussion. I just wanted to share this information.

 

[Mistwell]

See, that way, I font hsve to fuss with vague definitions of what "focused" means.

I assure you sir, I am not trying to get you to font hsve to fuss anything.

Taking PotA as a case in point, looking thtubthrir monsters sction ehich fntsils mske

Naw, I got nothing.

 

[Mistwell]

[MENTION=50015]Autumn[/MENTION]_bask

I didn't have the feeling you dismiss my perspective. I always think it is reasonable to adjucate the value of a certain feature or spell within your own game. I have played in games where a ribbon feature was worth more than any combat ability. Also actor and disguise self has saved the group many times. It was also used against the group resulting in a near TPK, a dead paladin and lost magic items.
I have also used the underrated dancing lights before treantmonk featured it in a video and highlighted the advantage.
I hate it when someone dismisses a concern telling me that my experience is only an outlier. This game practically consists of outliers and evaluating features in vacuum is a good start, but in an actual game it can be totally different.

I dismissed your concerns about a 10gp cost (which you thought was 25 gp) out of actual play experience. You didn't even know the cost, thought it was 150% of what it actually is, but are arguing I am wrong in thinking it's not a high cost despite my having played with it plenty and you not even knowing the cost. That's reasonably dismissable.

Most people who play 5e think there isn't enough to do with your gold, and you're arguing about a 10gp cost. IF that's your experience (and given your pricing was wrong, I have reason to doubt it is), then it is in fact an extreme outlier. In all these years of discussing the Find Familiar spell I don't recall one single person having any concern at all about a 10gp cost for some incense. You're it. And I gave you the examples from the published adventures which all give so much gold that a 10gp cost should not be an issue. And you can look at the suggested gold cost charts people have put together per level, and all of those would show 10gp shouldn't be an issue.

So what is your evidence, ANY evidence at all, which would tend to suggest the 10gp of incense cost for Find Familiar is an issue people who play this game have with the game or the spell or people who think it's a high cost which must be used sparingly?