Magically Equipped vs. Unequipped - What is the Level Difference?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This thead about Disjunction in the Rules Forum got me thinking of a scenario.

Let's say you had a group of 12th level characters that lost all their magical equipment, potions, scrolls, weapons, armor, everything - but still had the best mundane equipment their money could buy them or their skills could make them.

What would be the average level of a group with standard equipment that would pose a credible threat (i.e. near equal in power)?

Obviously, it would be a lower level - but what level do you think that would be? How many more "levels" does standard equipment count as in your eyes?

I'm glad you used the word average, because it has different effects based on class.

Off-hand, I don't know of any templates that give -5 AC and -3 saves but only -3 to hit and damage (as an example, I'm too lazy to look up the actual values right now). Not all statistics are affected equally, so you end up with something obviously weaker, but in a way that's also unbalanced.

 

[Fishbone]

I'm guessing that someone would be roughly worth 25 percent less without gear, perhaps more. A group of 15th level players fully geared with magic should be able to rule characters without it, particularily martial classes that can't cast. Fighter type characters aren't jack without expensive gear. That is why Disjunction is so feared. At a certain point your gear becomes not just what the characters has, but what makes the character and that dying to keep the gear and getting Rezzed/True Rezzed is preferable to dying without 100,000s of thousands of GP worth of gear.

 

[el-remmen]

So, if you had a party of 5 12th level folks with no magic gear and they took on a party of 5 9th level party with magic gear - you'd give it even odds?

Let's assume the two groups are made up of the same classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Barbarian.

Would that 12th level group then be able to take those magical items (assuming they won) and take on a 15th level party (same make up) with no magical gear and still have even odds?

 

[maggot]

So an 8th level group magically equipped would have an even chance against a 12th level group unequipped?

Against a completely unequipped 12th level party, maybe. Against a 12th level party with say 2nd or 3rd level equipment (masterwork stuff), maybe not.

 

[tburdett]

So, if you had a party of 5 12th level folks with no magic gear and they took on a party of 5 9th level party with magic gear - you'd give it even odds?

Let's assume the two groups are made up of the same classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Barbarian.

Would that 12th level group then be able to take those magical items (assuming they won) and take on a 15th level party (same make up) with no magical gear and still have even odds?

Shouldn't the party of five 9th level characters with gear be pitted against a single level 12 character without gear to test this? An entire party of level 12 characters would be a much higher challenge rating.

 

[el-remmen]

Shouldn't the party of five 9th level characters with gear be pitted against a single level 12 character without gear to test this? An entire party of level 12 characters would be a much higher challenge rating.

I'm not talking about challenge ratings.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

A simple answer: In terms of non buffed effectiveness, somewhere between 8th-11th level depending how the groups made up. Somewhere around 10th for an iconic party.


More detailed:

IMO, depends hugely on party composition and the nature of the encounter:

Assuming a couple of spellcasters with decent buffing potential - 2 clerics for example:

A 12th level party that could prepare for the fight, buff themselves with magic and pick the exact round that combat starts is going to hand the 9th level guys their heads on plates.

It hugely cuts into the 12th level guys 'encounter stamina' and they'll be able to deal with far less encounters per day. They'd probably have to blow their entire daily spell repetoires to get to about the point of their 'geared up' performance.

You also lose all the weird one shot items that let you kludge through nasty suprise encounters or unexpected status changes.

Melee orientated clerics and druids would also make a huge difference?



That was kind of the way things went when our 17th level party got totally stripped of gear.

Oh and dispelling becomes absolutely terrifying with things working like that.

 

[Quartz]

As the instigator of the other thread, I think it depends on the preparedness of each side. The higher level characters will have more feats and their buffing spells - which they can still cast - will be more effective, whereas the lower-level characters will be more prepared without buffing. And, of course, a 12th level group can invoke an Antimagic shell, which will totally favour themselves. Call it a wash.

Where the difference does come is in the non-combat knick-knacks: the Ring of Feather-falling, the luckstone, etc. The higher level group won't have these. For example, the character with a Ring of Feather-falling won't be too worried about his Fly spell being Dispelled, and so has more versatility. The issue is not so much the absense of these knick-knacks per se but that a party used to their presence can't immediately cope with their absence. e.g. the character Flying will need to remember to have a Feather Fall spell to hand. It's about brains, not brawn.

 

[Dragonblade]

Here is something I came up with long ago when 3.0 was first released. Hopefully it will help you out. Bear in mind that just like the CR system in general these are rough values. For example, party with 10 rings of feather fall is not as tough as a party with the equivalent gp value in fireball wands.

Basically, for purposes of this table, I consider CR to be the same as effective character level. So for a standard PC with no magical gear whatsoever, here is what I came up with in terms of what their effective CR would be. Remember that with magical gear appropriate for their level, a PC's CR is equal to their character level.

Level/Effective CR
1/1
2/2
3/3
4/3
5/4
6/4
7/5
8/5
9/6
10/6
11/7
12/7
13/8
14/8
15/9
16/10
17/10
18/11
19/11
20/12

Furthermore, I was thinking that the CR boost gained by magic items might in some way correspond to this table and the table in the DMG so that they both average out to the standard CR progression when both the character level and the magic items possessed are "in sync" so to speak.

Here is a rough work up of CR boost and magical item values.
0-5400 GP = no change
5400-9000 GP = +1 CR
9000-19,000 GP = +2 CR
19,000-36,000 GP = +3 CR
36,000-66,000 GP = +4 CR
66,000-110,000 GP = +5 CR
110,000-260,000 GP = +6 CR
260,000-440,000 GP = +7 CR
440,000-760,000 GP = +8 CR

Note: I haven't DMed in a while and these numbers were written for 3.0 rules. 3.5 may need some tweaking if the gold piece amounts of recommended gear per level have changed.

 

[ThirdWizard]

So, if you had a party of 5 12th level folks with no magic gear and they took on a party of 5 9th level party with magic gear - you'd give it even odds?

That is a fairly complicated question, but I'm going to say "no"

Speaking as someone who has actually played in an almost no magic game as a fighter up to 10th level (one +1 heavy flail, one +1 ring of protection), I can say with very much certainty that the relative power of the spellcasters remains higher than the power of the non-spellcasters in the extreme. My 10th level Fighter was on par wtih the 10th level druid's summons for any single combat even after the DM scaled them back a level (so for example a CR3 dire ape).

Beging generous, the 12th level party of 5 consisting of Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric is probably something like this:

Fighter Effective Level: 7
Barbarian Effective Level: 8
Rogue Effective Level: 6
Wizard Effective Level: 10
Cleric Effective Level: 10

The unequipped 12th level fighter, barbarian, and rogue will barely affect the overall performance of their group versus the equipped 9th level party compared to the casters, and due to domination/charm effects might prove to simply be a hinderance. Overall, purely power wise, however, I think they come out fairly even if its a straight up charge in fight.

However, if you take into considertation magical items like scrolls, wands, things that give better mobility, and the like, my bet would be on the 9th level guys just being able to out-resource the 12th level opponents into submission. They'll have more access to healing, be more likely to be able to fly (and thus stay completely out of reach), and have a far wider breadth of options available to them.