D&D 5E Make Characters being affected from conditions without telling Players explicitly?

[Ilbranteloth]

That's a good point. But if I let them roll a WIS saving throw and tell those guys who failed that "they believe the party should go and look for the noise", they instantly know it's a bad effect (because they know they missed the check).

So, I could do a hidden check (as the DM), right? But then I would have the problem that the Players have no clue to find out what's right and what's wrong.

Are there any other ways? Is it just not possible to solve this issue?

It's a very tough situation.

First off, tiny hints rarely work. You'll need a lot of them, so be prepared.

For the light you'll need to prepare some descriptions ahead of time. Most likely written. Make every single one different, because different people notice different.

I would use passive scores for all of these checks. Prepare some additional information should they ask questions. The reality is, they won't know if the lights are real or not, but most will suspect Will'o'wisps or similar situations, so I'd build a scenario where the lights are real and the illusion obscures them.

The clues are embedded within your written descriptions, and the players should then work it out between themselves. It's highly unlikely they would just let some of their party wander off, so unless you can break line of sight they will have to decide to split up on their own.

The written descriptions should be written so that each player has a sense that they are correct. If they can be trusted to keep the written page to themselves, and only talk to each other, then you can give some written instructions as well. For example, on one of the true ones and one of the false ones something that says, "do not reveal this to the others: you are very certain you are correct"

They should hopefully be more adamant in their argument, with others finding similar information on their sheets that supports it. You want to write them in a way that there will be some similarities among all of them, and then some similarities within the two groups. No two should be identical, and only the two "positive" ones should have all of the clues.

Be prepared to provide more hints, preferably in writing, although you can take people aside as well. Be careful in verbal or handwritten responses so you don't give something away. I'm assuming the goal is that they won't be able to figure it out without further investigation and picking a direction.

If you want to try to force them to split, then the two that know they are correct must be given instructions to stand their ground, in the same way that madness and ideals, bonds, etc are written. You could write one of these for every player, giving them a temporary trait to role play. For at least two of them it should be something like, "I stand my ground when I know I am right and will not be dissuaded from the best course of action".

They may find an option that doesn't require splitting up, but you want them to really discuss it. Also, if you are allowing Wisdom saves, prepare additional options with new role playing instructions, "You question some of your prior positions" or something that doesn't immediately tell them they made their saving throw and are back to normal. They should be uncertain as to whether this new information is valid.

For bards or spellcasters, work something into their description that says they will refuse or pretend to provide inspiration or magical help to people they disagree with. The others may have instructions that they support the decisions of the bard, or cleric, etc

You can also have them pre roll saving throws, or ask for something else so they don't suspect it's a saving throw.

Ideally, though, you've given them enough information that they will be discussing (in character) and not rolling dice.

 

[Satyrn]

That's a good point. But if I let them roll a WIS saving throw and tell those guys who failed that "they believe the party should go and look for the noise", they instantly know it's a bad effect (because they know they missed the check).

So, I could do a hidden check (as the DM), right? But then I would have the problem that the Players have no clue to find out what's right and what's wrong.

Are there any other ways? Is it just not possible to solve this issue?

Maybe your players will accept being influenced and act accordingly even if they know it's a negative.

 

[ccs]

That's a perfect idea. I always thought of doing the saving throw right before the effect. But this one quite a simple and perfect idea! Thanks!




I was thinking about that too. But the problem is, I want to split the group. For example:

a) the ones who fail the save (e.g. they want to go after the noise) and
b) the ones who succeed the save (e.g. they think it's an illusion and want to stay).

If I do so, all the characters with high results will know that they are right. That's actually my main problem for all situations. I know this is meta gaming, but my Players will likely do so. :-(

It won't matter. What'll happen is this:
The party will opt to stay together. Either those who want to go after the noise will think there's something wrong with those refusing to go & will stay with them. (Afterall it's just a noise).
OR
If some of the party are bound & determined to go after the noise, the others will back them up. Afterall, it might be just a noise. But that doesn't mean that something else might not be found....

So either way, they'll stick together.

 

[Brainwatch]

A suggestion and a couple of thoughts.

First, for the saving throws, one way to add to the atmosphere and keep the players off balance is to call for lots of d20 rolls. Don't tell them what they're rolling for (ie WIS save) just roll the die and you consult the results (works best if you have their saves/ability scores listed for yourself). Always ask for a d20 roll before describing anything to the players. The players won't/shouldn't know if they've actually made a roll to find something, or missed spotting something. This will also help hide the actual times the roll saving throws.

For the lights, as a player If I make my saving throw, will I get to notice my party members wandering off, or will this just happen? If I notice my party memebers trying to wander off, what can I do? What PC on PC interactions will follow?

For the thorns, a possible issue might be for a player in heavy armor, why are the thorns bothering them? How are the thorns getting through the armor? Some players might view this as a problem where the DM just fiats it has to happen. A suggestion, poison thorns in a forest (to me anyway) bring up a view of an evil forest. Something less foreboding might be flowers or a smell in the forest that has the same effect but doesn't rely on actual damage to achieve its goal. Anybody who breaths could be affected.

This sounds like it could be very fun if the players get on baord with it. Paranoid PCs in an enchanted forest, fun!

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6804713]lkwpeter[/MENTION] Since it sounds like you're dealing with illusions that appear differently to different PCs, I'll share a quick anecdote that may inspire you: My 5 players entered a magic gate and each found themselves in a chamber with four threatening monsters. Each monster corresponded to one of their fellow PCs but it wasn't at all obvious. Only after experimenting and making attempts to identify a "monster's" true identity, were they able to escape the illusory trap.

I set this up with map/mini & tokens, which helped reinforce the illusion.

If you have "will-o-wisp" illusions in the mystical forest, I'd suggest using a similar prop. Place multiple wisps of various colors around the PCs. Key each color to a PC - somehow the wisp seems especially real to the keyed PC, drawing upon their backstory / past events / roleplaying traits.

The idea being that the players assume all the wisps are real (since you've bothered to put down tokens/minis), but then you give each PC a strong motive to pursue the wisp keyed to them. So rather than forcing them with a saving throw / compulsion effect, you're luring them with a carrot. Muuuch more effective for these kinds of scenarios, but you need to make that carrot truly tempting. Even better if you foreshadow "great power lies within the woods."

 

[lkwpeter]

WoW! Your tipps are amazing - all of them! But special thanks to @Ilbranteloth and @Quickleaf. Your suggestions are absolutely fantastic. I will mix them, because they seem to fit quite well. So, there will be real lights that will also be placed as tokens on the map. These light will try to influence the characters. I will ask for a D20 roll without saying it's a WIS saving throw. After they rolled, I will tell that the characters with high rolles recognize something like"tiny sun rays clustering and forming to little light globes" . They will think that they rolled a perception check.

Characters that failed their save will believe that these globes will guide the right way through the forest.
Characters that succeed their save will also see lights. They will also find them wonderful and nice, but they have no "connection" to them. The won't be able to communicate and therefore will not understand why the "charmed characters" are so obsessed about these globes.

Aims of the globes:

What could they aim for? Make the group get lost in the forest? Lead them to dangerous places? Lead them to some mystic places?


One last question:

After I have made them arguing. What options/ways do the characters/players have to solve the situation? First, I was aiming at some characters specific class features or spells (like Countercharm (Bard) or Beacon of Hope (Cleric)). But I think this is just too difficult, because a) I do not know if these characters will be also affected. If so, these options are lost. Furthermore, I have no control about when the Bard/Cleric uses its feature/spell. The situation could be over in a few seconds or be streched until frustration.

Side note: I don't want them really to split for the rest of the time. They should just try to avoid it. Maybe some of them already start to move. But if they really lose themselves, there are very rare possibilities to solve the situation for them alone. So, I think the more interesting situation is to challenge the characters/players to avoid a group split.

So, do you have any further suggestions about how to solve this?

Would be very glad about further tipps! Thanks so far and in advance!

 

[Yunru]

I think it bears repeating that there is a high likelihood that this won't split the party. Either those that fail will want to follow the lights, and the rest of the party will go "okay" because "why not?" Or, the rest of the party won't want to, either giving in to the others resulting in the above, or learning that they're charmed. It's only going to be a small handful of cases where the party's going to go "okay, have fun chasing lights." and split up.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Make Characters being affected from conditions without telling Players explicitly?

Yes. It's a classic DM technique, and it brings player skill into the challenge, rewarding those who pay attention.

How do I determine, which characters are affected by desease/charm, etc. without giving them too information about what's going on?

Make saves behind the screen. In the case of the lights, make it seem like you're rolling perception and the characters that failed the save see something important. The party will likely follow along...

If I ask them to make a CON saving throw they immediately know it must be a poison or desease.

In this case, describe the symptoms to those who fail, let the players figure out the possible causes.

If I roll the dice hidden, they won't be able to use the Inspiration from the Bard and they - indeed - have very little information about what's going on.

Inspiration is for rolls they make, it can be used when they start to figure out what's up and try to do something about it.

I was thinking about that too. But the problem is, I want to split the group. For example:

a) the ones who fail the save (e.g. they want to go after the noise) and
b) the ones who succeed the save (e.g. they think it's an illusion and want to stay).

If I do so, all the characters with high results will know that they are right. That's actually my main problem for all situations. I know this is meta gaming, but my Players will likely do so. :-(

Yep. This is a case where rolling behind the screen is the way to go. That way you can give them information that clearly splits them into two camps - those who heard something 'important' that needs to be investigated and those who don't and are suspicious. With a little luck, you can have each side convinced the other is the one being influence, one being made to hear things that aren't there, the other failing to pierce the concealment of things that are...

Aims of the globes:

What could they aim for? Make the group get lost in the forest? Lead them to dangerous places? Lead them to some mystic places?

Lead them into danger would be the classic Will-o-whisp MO.

After I have made them arguing. What options/ways do the characters/players have to solve the situation? First, I was aiming at some characters specific class features or spells (like Countercharm (Bard) or Beacon of Hope (Cleric)). But I think this is just too difficult, because a) I do not know if these characters will be also affected. If so, these options are lost. Furthermore, I have no control about when the Bard/Cleric uses its feature/spell. The situation could be over in a few seconds or be streched until frustration.

Class features are one option, but just letting it play out is fine. If the party fall for the trick, they're delayed and/or suffer some attrition, but will eventually see through and it'll be less likely to work on them again. If they don't they progress. In fiction, the cadence would probably be falling for the first trick, and being suspicious thereafter, and finally blowing past a repeat of an earlier trick when the forest has run out of new things to befuddle them with.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6804713]lkwpeter[/MENTION] I'd encourage you to think a little differently about your scenario. I'd conceive of this as a puzzle / trap; in fact you may wish to look at the Unearthed Arcana trap guidelines.

Don't lead with a saving throw (even a d20 roll the players don't initially realize is a save) - it will put already suspicious players on high alert. Treat it as an environmental illusion...which players can take an action to disbelieve / see thru with an Investigation check as normal (or cast dispel magic, or seen thru with true seeing, or touch to reveal it's an illusion, etc). There's no save for environmental illusions (see the DMG "dungeon hazards" IIRC). Essentially what you have are things that LOOK like will-o'-wisps but are actually illusions. I'd just narrate it and let the players reach their own conclusions / devise their own strategies.

I'd would flesh this out a lot more than you have. What you have now are barebones.

What do the wisps "want"? I have no idea. What's the story behind the mystical forest and these wisps in your campaign world? I always start from the story first. When I find myself getting stuck, it's usually a sign I haven't thought out the story logistics/details. For example, is it an ancient forest imbued with elven high magic to conceal an elven sacred site? So that would indicate the wisps either seek to lead creatures AWAY from the sacred site or into environmental hazards in the woods...but that elves might be able to bypass some of its effects (I.e. Suggesting charm/sleep effects).

It sounds like the primary conflict you wish to set up is a CHOICE among the players: "Do we split the party going after these wisps?" This means you need to devote further thought to set it up, as opposed to relying on charm magic.

Most players are savvy enough to know "don't follow will-o'-wisps in a spooky forest alone." So they begin with a disincentive. You need to give them a reason to WANT to follow...and I highly recommend this reason be tailored to each PC/player and their goals/interests/backstory. For example, say a Rogue PC has a personal goal of finding his missing sister. You'd have a wisp appear to speak to him in his sister's voice or seem to reveal images of her in its light as if through a crystal ball, and then the wisp would slowly float away (in a different direction from all other wisps). And if the player manages to reach/find the wisp, I'd have something they could gain/learn - so it's not just a trick, there actually ARE mystical secrets in the woods enticing trespassers.

SECOND, it sounds like the main risk you want to include is "getting lost." In many campaign styles, however, "getting lost" is meaningless - it just means the DM narrates more time passing, and in the case of a separated party it means some players being disconnected from the fun. It doesn't MEAN anything. In order to make "getting lost" mean something you need at least one of the following:

1. An old school style of play tracking resources closely. In this context getting lost could = death if you run out of food/water. I see few groups doing this anymore.

2. A deadline that makes time a resource the PCs need to manage. In this case you'll need to double down on any enticements you offer PCs when trying to lure them into the woods, because they have the deadline in the back of their minds.

3. Interesting/challenging vignettes of what may be encountered in the woods. Lost characters would encounter these things and have to find ways to overcome them without the support of their party.

4. A story device to sow discord/mistrust between party & lost members (once they meet back up). Typically this should be foreshadowed in advance (e.g. Beware the doppelganagers of the wood!) and supported with "phantom d20 rolls" called for by the DM and secret notes.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Alternatively, you could conspire with the players against their characters.

Tell the players that some characters have been subtly charmed to behave in a certain way. Trust the players to take the idea and run with it.

In my experience, this leads to players being over-eager to screw around their characters, and on one occasion I had to rein them in a bit. "Hey, mates, its only a light charm, not a overwhelming compulsion to blindly rush into the fire."