Make Race Matter

[steeldragons]

The key is different not better.

Elves are faster than humans, can fire two arrows at once, but have 2 less HP per level.

Dwarves have 2 more HP per level, treat heavy armor as medium armor, but are slower than humans.

Halflings get AC from size, can actively dodge melee attack, but are physically weak.

Elf fighters are skirmishers or archer. Elves make terrible tanks due to their poor HP.

Dwarf fighters are great tanks and berserkers. Dwarves make terrible skrimishers due to their low speed.

Halfling fighters are good tanks and lurkers. Halfings make terrible berserkers as they have low strength.

Human fighters aren't as good an archer as elves, tanks as dwarves, or lurkers as halflings. But humans can have good damage, AC, HP, and speed at the same time. If you want a good archer who doesn't fall over in 2 hits, be a human.

Can't XP you just now. Seems you make a lot of sense on a regular basis. lol.

But, yes.

Just so.

Good stuff.
--SD

 

[TwinBahamut]

The trouble with giving mechanical advantages to different races is that people invariably end up picking the best race for a class. You also end up with an arms race for races, as a small bonus in that category isn't enough.

Like how half-orcs weren't enough, you had to have half-ogres, then half-giants, then minotaurs, all with more and more strength bonuses.

Something as important as a character's race should be picked for a role-playing reason, not mechanical.

I'll disagree with all of this. There is nothing inherently true about the idea that powerful racial features lead directly to making certain races the best choices for a class. That is certainly a possible problem with the current implementation of races, where races are primarily defined by a handful of ability score bonuses in a game where a slight ability score bonus is a big advantage, but that statement doesn't hold true for a more robust racial ability mechanic.

The "arms race" is also a rather silly concept. The ideal is that all races are balanced, and simply provide different options and experiences from each other. I mean, the 4E Dwarf, Goliath, Half-Orc, and Minotaur (I believe, not owning the PHB3) races all have the same strength bonus, so this idea simply isn't true.

In a good race system where races have a large number of mechanics, the major benefits of the race could potentially benefit a large number of classes, and are balanced with the equally potent abilities of any other race that benefits those classes. They provide mechanical choices without creating a "best race for each class" problem.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

The key is different not better.

Elves are faster than humans, can fire two arrows at once, but have 2 less HP per level.

Dwarves have 2 more HP per level, treat heavy armor as medium armor, but are slower than humans.

Halflings get AC from size, can actively dodge melee attack, but are physically weak.

Elf fighters are skirmishers or archer. Elves make terrible tanks due to their poor HP.

Dwarf fighters are great tanks and berserkers. Dwarves make terrible skrimishers due to their low speed.

Halfling fighters are good tanks and lurkers. Halfings make terrible berserkers as they have low strength.

Human fighters aren't as good an archer as elves, tanks as dwarves, or lurkers as halflings. But humans can have good damage, AC, HP, and speed at the same time. If you want a good archer who doesn't fall over in 2 hits, be a human.

Yup, these are nice ideas. The trick lies in making the "different, not better or worse" to actually work that way, and requires a lot of attention to the game balance and maths on behalf of the designers.

 

[Minigiant]

The key to making races matter without making the game go into a "best race" arms race is:

not to make races and classes one dimensional.

Earlier editions made only racial ability adjustments relevant for most characters. If D&DN/5E makes multiple aspects of each race important, the races would on their ways to being somewhat important crunchwise outside of powergaming.

 

[SensoryThought]

I'd like to see more advice on world building to make race matter more. For me race allows an exploration of prejudice and racial tensions. Dragon age did this very well in their world.

Burning wheel is a game system that really makes race matter with dwarven 'greed' and orcish 'hate' that D&DN could also draw from.

Personally I'd like to see the demihuman races be more than pointy eared or short humans, but equally not RA Salvatore style stereotypes.

None of my comments address the mechanics of racial bonuses, but I think flavor is what needs to be a focus (an area of 4e weakness).

 

[Hassassin]

Ability scores could be made more important. But a lot of fans hate that idea and even want to cap ability scores.

Capping is a way to make racial ability modifiers more important (if they affect the cap), and is in no way contrary to making ability scores in general matter more.

 

[Tallifer]

After a few years of 4e, I'm ready for race to matter less.

Ditto.

People say there are 6000 feats in the Fourth Edition, but most of them are pigeon-holed by race or class or both.

In every edition, stereotypical and cliched race-class combinations are reinforced to the point that only someone who cares nothing about effectiveness would make a character which breaks the mould. I exaggerate, but I really find it annoying when building a character.

 

[Minigiant]

Capping is a way to make racial ability modifiers more important (if they affect the cap), and is in no way contrary to making ability scores in general matter more.

As I said in the other topic
Capping is a racial ability modifiers more important if a lot of assumptions are made.

1. The racial ability modifiers affect the cap as you said.
2. There are none to few abilities increases from leveling
3. There are none to few abilities increases from items or magic
4. There is a noticeable gap between the modifiers of ability scores
5. There are no ability replacement abilities or items

Or the game would encourage characters to keep ability scores at their most efficient level and kept the same (All 18s or all 16s).

 

[Hassassin]

As I said in the other topic
Capping is a racial ability modifiers more important if a lot of assumptions are made.

1. The racial ability modifiers affect the cap as you said.
2. There are none to few abilities increases from leveling
3. There are none to few abilities increases from items or magic
4. There is a noticeable gap between the modifiers of ability scores
5. There are no ability replacement abilities or items

I disagree with 2. and 3. - a cap makes race matter more both with and without them, assuming 1. Even many increases from level and items don't overshadow the racial bonus if you can't go over the cap without it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 4. Could you explain?

On 5. I agree, except it's not absolute - such items only have to be few for them to not make racial bonuses irrelevant. Or they could top out below the racial maxima, I suppose.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree with 2. and 3. - a cap makes race matter more both with and without them, assuming 1. Even many increases from level and items don't overshadow the racial bonus if you can't go over the cap without it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 4. Could you explain?

On 5. I agree, except it's not absolute - such items only have to be few for them to not make racial bonuses irrelevant. Or they could top out below the racial maxima, I suppose.

4 is having 10-19 go for +0 to +3 rather than +0 to +4. Making the max bonus is at a lower score or hard/inefficient to reach.

As for 2 & 3.

The elf fighter rolls 14 16 14 10 8 8 after adjustment. The cap is 18. He grabs all the ability bonuses form spells, levels, wishes, and items. The elf fighter is 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18.

The dwarf fighter rolls 14 14 16 10 8 8 after adjustment. The cap is 18. He grabs all the ability bonuses form spells, levels, wishes, and items. The dwarf fighter is 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18.

If race affects the cap then 18, 20, 18, 18, 18, 18 and 18, 18, 20, 18, 18, 18.

If the max bonus is at a lower score or hard/inefficient to reach then if would be all 16s or all 17s.

Even if the there aren't enough bonuses to max all six stats, it would encourage every member of a class to get the best score in their primary and secondary abilities.