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Making ambush feats usable

Matrixryu

First Post
Is it just me, or are the ambush feats in Complete Scoundrel just not worth it? For example, Disemboweling Strike, you can give up 4d6 sneak attack damage to do 1d4 constitution damage to a target. I can see how that might be useful in some situations against very high level opponents...but aren't there better things to use a feat on? Please tell me if you think I'm wrong.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of a way to make these more usable without making them overpowered. Has anyone tried to do this before?

My idea is instead of making using ambush feat cause a character to lose sneak attack damage, let's have the sneak attack loss that an ambush feat instead be a requirement of some sort. Say, you can 'invest' ambush feats into your sneak attacks as long the total sneak attack penalty those feats would have given you x2 (for balance sake) would not be greater than your sneak attack dice.

So, a rogue with +10d6 sneak attack could choose to use Disemboweling Strike (8d6 investment requirement) or he could use Throat Punch (4d6) and Deafening Strike (6d6) for a total of 10d6. Remember, we're taking the amount that the feat would normally reduce a sneak attack by and doubling it to create the 'investment requirement'

Of course, we can't have people go around using these feats for free constantly, so another requirement might be that any one target can only be hit with any specific ambush feat once per day. If a character wants he could continue using the feat on a person by applying the sneak attack damage penalty normally.

I'm just throwing around ideas at this point, so if anyone thinks that this stuff would be unbalancing, or if there are any better ideas out there I'd be interested in hearing about it.
 

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Asha'man

First Post
I agree that the actual feats are mediocre, but I think the RAW Ambush feat mechanic is excellent. I'd rather fix the feats by a combination of reducing the dice sacrifice requirements and making the feats' effects more powerful.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I agree. Perhaps just trade 2d6 damage for 1d4 Con, etc.

Personally, I changed SA considerably to reduce all those dice, so i might go with something closer to the OP's idea.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think it is just you.

My problem with the ambush feats is that they are very hard to balance.

Disembowling strike would be a case in point. I wouldn't allow it in my game. Are there better things to spend a feat on? Probably not if you do 4d6 or more worth of sneak attack damage.

4d6 damage = average 14 hitpoints.

1d4 Con damage is roughly average 1.25 hitpoints damage per HD of the target. So it generally sucks vs. targets that are 10 HD or less, but after a certain point it is pretty much always better than regular sneak attack. Killing CON is even better than doing HD damage. It's harder to cure, and it leaves the target with weaker Fort saves. By the time that the rogue has 4d6 sneak attack damage, 14 HD opponents aren't that unusual. If you hit a 14 HD creature for 2 CON damage, you've broke even. If you hit a 20 HD creature for 4 CON damage, that's better than doing 40 damage (for a loss of 14). That's a net of +26 damage. It's hard to think of another feat that can yield such a big upside in so many situations. At the upper levels, the rogue would never not use Disembowling Strike except when they couldn't sneak attack at all.

Inflicting at will condition damage is very powerful. It's like spells only worse because it evades the normal defences against spells.

The general pattern for the 'ambush feats that I might consider is:

Prequisite: [some dice of sneak attack], some feat
Benefit: If you sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a Fort save vs. DC 10 + # sneak attack dice + rogue's WIS bonus or [minor effect].

Where [minor effect] is something like dazed/dazzled/knocked down/shakened/staggered/1 Dex damage/1 Str damage/bleeding/deafened.

So for example:

Pounding Strike
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, Str 13, Power Attack
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack with a bludgeoning weapon and score a critical hit, then the target must make a fort save vs. DC 10 + sneak attack rank + your Wis bonus or be knocked prone.

Bleeding Strike
Prerequisite: +1d6 sneak attack, Dex 13, Weapon Finesse in an edged weapon
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack with an edged weapon for which you have the Weapon Finesse feat and score a critical hit, then the target begins bleeding and loses 1 h.p. per round until it can stablize (Roll its Con or less on a d% dice).

Blinding Strike
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, Int 13, Combat Expertise
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a fort save vs. DC 10 + sneak attack rank + your Wis bonus or be dazzled for one round.
 

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Since it's the actual feats that don't work, and the mechanic of "sacrifice X dice for Y effect" is sound, I'd suggest simply scaling the benefit. All ambush feats start at -1d6 and get better the more you sacrifice.

Taking Disemboweling Strike as an example, you normally sacrifice 4d6 SA for 1d4 Con. Let's scale that back to be sacrifice 1d6 SA for 1 Con, and then it scales linearly--4d6 for 4 Con, up to 10d6 for 10 Con. A little more worth it, don't you think?

Now that we're making them useful, we also need to ensure that a rogue doesn't just use them all the time, as you said. I would limit use of ambush feats to one per round, and each target can only be affected once per combat by a given feat; it's not as hard a cap as once per day, and it also prevents a rogue from full-attacking someone into a dozen status effects.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Two considerations for those who say disembowling strike is "too good":

1) iirc, you cna only use it once/encounter on any one opponent, so while con damage is best against high level BBEG's, the feat itself prevents you from spamming it on the most desirable targets over and over again.

2) Any melee rogue will want Staggering Strike. It's just that good. Any reduction to SA damage is also lowering the DC to keep the bad guy from full attacking you back.

I find the Ambush feats a little underpowered, and Disembolwing Strike is one of the better ones, to boot IMO. I do like the basic mechanic, though. I think they just need stronger effects, or lower cost, or combine some of the less impressive ones into multi-purpose feats, so the feat cost isn't as much to get them.

Also, given how there are the Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic feats, I don't think a feat that lowers the cost of all Ambush feats by 1d6 to be out of line, if someone really wanted to load up on them.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Since it's the actual feats that don't work, and the mechanic of "sacrifice X dice for Y effect" is sound...

Well, it's sound mechanically, in as much as in theory you can make a trade between two resources balanced, but I personally find the mechanic has poor flavor. Essentially what it is suggests is that you do less damage... to do more tangible damage to the target. That I find absolutely baffling and incoherent from a flavor standpoint. Surely the more tangible the damage you do to the target... the more damage you actually do.

As far as scaling goes, it makes the problems even worse. Frankly, striking to do -10 CON is an absolutely insanely powerful effect worth several times what you sacrifice (35 points worth of damage). And when you scale the non-damaging conditions, it just makes the incongruent flavor that much more well....incongruent.

"Let me get this straight, I've just had my eyes gouged, had my hamstring cut, deafened, my throat is cut, I've been ganked in the guts, and stabbed in the nuts.... and none of this actually reduced my hit points more than your average scratch? Well, it's a good thing he didn't decide to stab me deeply in someplace that would actually hurt, like whatever sack I'm storing my hit points in."
 

Matrixryu

First Post
Well, it's sound mechanically, in as much as in theory you can make a trade between two resources balanced, but I personally find the mechanic has poor flavor. Essentially what it is suggests is that you do less damage... to do more tangible damage to the target. That I find absolutely baffling and incoherent from a flavor standpoint. Surely the more tangible the damage you do to the target... the more damage you actually do.

This is exactly what bothers me about these feats, lol. Aiming for a person's weak spot really should be doing more damage, not less. The idea that Disemboweling and beating someone over the head can somehow do LESS damage... Though, this is related to the problem of 'how do people in this game fight at full power as a dragon breaths burns and claws them to death, and then just fall over dead when they reach -10 hp'

I guess the truth is that in game terms, the 'sacrifice damage for a special effect' mechanic is sound, but using that mechanic on sneak attacks doesn't feel right to me.

The general pattern for the 'ambush feats that I might consider is:

Prequisite: [some dice of sneak attack], some feat
Benefit: If you sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a Fort save vs. DC 10 + # sneak attack dice + rogue's WIS bonus or [minor effect].
That's actually an intersting idea, though I think I would trade the Wis bonus for Int, since Dex and Int are supposed to be a rogue's primary stats. Pathfinder actually has a simmilar set of feats, except when the crit happens no save is nessissary: Critical Feats (Pathfinder_OGC) . I guess pathfinder figured that a crit is hard enough to do that there's no point in making the effect happen even less often by letting the enemy have a save to get out of it.

Edit: After thinking about it, I believe saying that a rogue would have to get a sneak attack critical hit, and hope that the enemy fails a saving throw, just wouldn't happen often enough to be worth a feat unless the effect was absurd. Then again, I'm doing a pathfinder campaign where a pure lvl 20 rogue has Master Strike, and can automatically kill anyone whom he sneak attacks that fails a save with out even sacrificing damage dice http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/basic-classes/rogue#TOC-Master-Strike-Ex-. Though, at least he can only try that on any one person once per day. But yea, People who are doing regular 3.5 probably have their games balanced differently than mine XD

Either way, this sounds like a good way to balance the feats to me:
Now that we're making them useful, we also need to ensure that a rogue doesn't just use them all the time, as you said. I would limit use of ambush feats to one per round, and each target can only be affected once per combat by a given feat; it's not as hard a cap as once per day, and it also prevents a rogue from full-attacking someone into a dozen status effects.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
That's actually an intersting idea, though I think I would trade the Wis bonus for Int, since Dex and Int are supposed to be a rogue's primary stats.

The reason for wisdom is that the skill of the attack is concieved as being perception based. Also, I'm not a big fan of taking the idea of a class having a 'primary stat' to mean, "Everything about the class should depend on the primary stat". That leads to specialization being much much better than generalization which in turn leads to one dimensional characters, johnny one-shots, and so forth. My design strategy is more geared around, "Every attribute should be highly useful, and there should be a successful build for every class with an emphasis in any attribute (if not necessarily to the extent that they can ignore the more typical emphasis)". So, the idea of creating a wisdom centered feat tree for Rogues appeals to me, because I don't have one of those yet.

Pathfinder actually has a simmilar set of feats...

I have no knowledge of Pathfinder, but I'm not surprised. I think the general mechanic makes alot more sense than the ambush feat mechanic, and that the general mechanic has probably occurred to alot of people looking at the problems with 3.X.

...except when the crit happens no save is nessissary

This isn't entirely true. Some of the pathfinder feats you link to have saving throws, and some of the suggested feats I listed don't have saving throws. (The pathfinder feats tend to be 'save partial' though.)

I'd like you to note several important differences between the pathfinder feats and what I offered.

First, Pathfinder concieves the feats as high end feats. Notice how they aren't even available until BAB +13 or higher. However, I conceived the feats as low level feats - for example, my 'Bleeding Strike' is available from 1st level for a human Rogue. Pathfinder says, "At high level, you ought to do big splashy things." My approach is more, "Even a 1st level character can deliberately attack a weak point in order to inflict a condition."

Secondly, Pathfinder approaches the problem of balance here in exactly the opposite way that I would approach it. Pathfinder balances the feat by making it have a 'feat tax', in that the 'Critical Focus' feat is fairly weak and the sort of thing you'd only take if you were going for one of these really powerful strike feats later. I would do the opposite. I'd make the strike feat available early, and then make available at high levels feats that enhanced the strike feat and the capacity to do criticals. Thirdly, I'm much more conservative than Pathfinder seems to be about how I balance things. Anything that bypasses the hitpoint system has to be treated very carefuly -whether its a feat or a spell.

I guess pathfinder figured that a crit is hard enough to do that there's no point in making the effect happen even less often by letting the enemy have a save to get out of it.

You are probably right. However, my approach would be the opposite. I would assume instead that as level increased a crit would be easier and easier to achieve because as level increases the crit becomes relatively less and less important because the hit points are increasing to compensate. This is the idea behind feats like 'Improved Critical'. So my approach to balance here is, "At low levels, you can take these feats to recieve occasional small benefits. At high levels, these small benefits are recieved more and more often both because you make more attacks per round AND you are more likely to make a critical hit with each attack."

I believe saying that a rogue would have to get a sneak attack critical hit, and hope that the enemy fails a saving throw, just wouldn't happen often enough to be worth a feat unless the effect was absurd.

I disagree. We have to make some assumptions about the DC each system assumes for a saving throw, but for now, let's assume that however we are generating DC the resulting number means that a creature with a weak Fort save fails about 50% of the time and a creature with a good Fort save about 25% of the time. Let's assume that the rogue makes sneak attacks 75% of the time and that the rogue scores a critical 15% of the time. If the effect is absurd, then what you are saying is that on 1:20 attacks, the rogue wins the fight outright.

My prefered approach would be to make the effect weak, and then play with how common it occurs in two ways. First, by increasing the frequency of critical hits. Second, by doing something like this:

Ambush Mastery
No one wants to meet you in a dark ally.
Prerequisite: At least two ambush feats, Dex 13+, Wis 13+, sneak attack 5d6
Benefit:
Benefit #1: You really know how to hit vital points. Whenever you force a saving throw as the result of successfully employing any ambush feat you know, the DC of that saving throw is increased by 5.
Benefit #2: You know how to make the most of a target's surprise. Whenevery you attack a flat-footed target, you recieve a +4 bonus ony your to hit roll.
Benefit #3: Whenever you catch the opponent by surprise, you move with such startling swiftness and terrifying ferocity that your opponents mistake you for some sort of supernatural force. Whenever you catch an opponent flat-footed, you can make an intimidate check as a free action.

Then again, I'm doing a pathfinder campaign where a pure lvl 20 rogue has Master Strike, and can automatically kill anyone whom he sneak attacks that fails a save with out even sacrificing damage dice Rogue (Pathfinder_OGC). Though, at least he can only try that on any one person once per day.

Yikes. I see several problems with that. First, it tries to solve the 'save or suck' problem by simply saying, "Well, everyone ought to recieve save or suck effects.", rather than saying, "Well, we want to keep these in the game because they add something interesting (variaty, versimilitude, tactical richness, fear, whatever), but we have to find a way to keep them from bypassing the hit point system entirely and dominating play completely so that the character's don't feel like their success is entirely luck dependent." And second, I hate the flavor of metagame balancing rules like, "You can only try that on any one person once per day." Why? It makes no sense at all except in game terms.
 

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Well, it's sound mechanically, in as much as in theory you can make a trade between two resources balanced, but I personally find the mechanic has poor flavor. Essentially what it is suggests is that you do less damage... to do more tangible damage to the target. That I find absolutely baffling and incoherent from a flavor standpoint. Surely the more tangible the damage you do to the target... the more damage you actually do.

Well, SA dice represent dealing damage to some vulnerable part of the body. Giving up some damage potential to do something else makes sense if you consider that to be simply aiming for another part--if regular SA is "I'm going to get him in the back, then when he turns I'll duck and aim for the knee...." then Disemboweling Strike is "I'm going to keep aiming right for his stomach until I get in a solid hit." Instead of striking opportunistically and getting constant damage in, you're getting less damage but potentially getting better payoff by ignoring all but one spot and consistently attacking that.

As far as scaling goes, it makes the problems even worse. Frankly, striking to do -10 CON is an absolutely insanely powerful effect worth several times what you sacrifice (35 points worth of damage).

Frankly, I see your objection to this as a manifestation of Non-Casters Don't Get Nice ThingsTM. To be dealing 10 Con damage, you need to be a 19th-level rogue giving up all your SA dice. First off, by 19th level other characters can do more hit point or ability damage and do it more consistently than 1/encounter.

Secondly, let's compare. Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6+CL/2 Str damage as a 1st level spell, and can be metamagicked for more--and even without metamagic, as a plain ol' spell, it can do 10 ability damage at least 9 levels earlier than the rogue, and more often than 1/encounter. The poison spell does 1d10 Con on a touch, then 1d10 1 minute later, as a 3rd level spell. It allows a save, of course, but then again it's dealing 2d10 Con at 5th level, potentially more if you metamagic it--and I'd say 10 Con now, 10 Con later is worth it. If you look at the trend (1st level slot, 10th level, 6-11 Str damage, no save; 3rd level slot, 5th level, 2d10 Con damage, save) then a 19th level rogue should be just fine dealing 10 Con damage, no save.

And when you scale the non-damaging conditions, it just makes the incongruent flavor that much more well....incongruent. "Let me get this straight, I've just had my eyes gouged, had my hamstring cut, deafened, my throat is cut, I've been ganked in the guts, and stabbed in the nuts.... and none of this actually reduced my hit points more than your average scratch? Well, it's a good thing he didn't decide to stab me deeply in someplace that would actually hurt, like whatever sack I'm storing my hit points in."

D&D has been dealing with verisimilitude issues from its Critical Existence Failure paradigm since 1e. Anything involving hit points is an abstraction at some level.
 

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