making Prestige classes into Core classes

[spidertrag]

This is probably a stupid question, but, is it feasible to 'convert' prestige classes into core classes? If so, any suggestions on how to go about doing so?

thanks

 

[HellHound]

A vast majority of them would need to be powered-down a bit, and obviously have their abilities spread out over a 20 level system instead of the current 3, 5 or 10 levels (or 7, 8, 12, or 15 levels for some odd-balls).

The biggest thing to remember is NOT to increase the abilities of the class as it progresses to higher levels, but the spread them out instead. The old level 10 ability of the class is likely a level 15 to 20 ability for the core class.

Basically, find the class that best suits joining the PRC, and build the new 20 level class using a mix of the core class and prestige class abilities.

 

[dogboy]

Converting

I think it is very easy to convert. Just look at the required levels needed to
obtain the prestige class and model your first levels after these. If there are
required feats, then use those as the abilities one gets when gaining levels.
You will probably have about 5 to 7 levels right there and with a 10 level
prestige class, that will mean that you only have to come up with a few extra levels. A couple of those could be hollow levels, like you find in core classes anyway. With prestige classes, most have a couple of levels where there are two special abilities gained for a level. Just take those and split them up and that should round out your core class. What was said about a
10th level ability in a prestige class really being equal to a 15 to 20th level
core class ability I whole heartily agree with, but it is really common sense.
Most prestige classes should be converted into core classes anyways.

 

[Tessarael]

I recommend strongly against this. A prestige class generally represents belonging to an organization - a specialization. It shouldn't take 20 levels to represent this. Often, it shouldn't take even 10 levels ... a lot of the abilities thrown in are filler.

What are you trying to achieve by making a prestige class into a base class? BAB, skills, spellcasting, and saves can all be handled by the base classes that already exist. If you want variant base classes, I suggest taking a look at Monte Cooke's Arcana Unearthed - that is the one of the few sources besides the PHB where good flexible base classes have been presented. Also take a look at Unearthed Arcana for variants to the base classes.

If after all that you want to make a prestige class into a base class ... look at the abilities it has, and compare those to existing base classes. BAB, save and skill point progression can generally be extrapolated without problems. Be careful with extrapolating spellcasting progression - some prestige classes intentionally have requirements that will force some loss of spellcasting. On that note, make sure the requirements are represented in the base class that you build: skills should be class skills, feats should be feats that one gets as class abilities in the first few levels (either that or they should take them with their feats from level progression). Regards the high level prestige class abilities - check what spell level they might be. e.g. If the prestige class gets Mind Blank 1/day ... well it's an 8th level spell ... probably shouldn't get that before 15th level in a base class progression (i.e. when a spellcaster would normally gain access to the spell).

Just my thoughts ...

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I recommend strongly against this. A prestige class generally represents belonging to an organization - a specialization.

This hasn't been true of D&D prestige classes for a very long time.

The general attitude, amongst not only players but also writers and designers, is that the specialised training of a gameworld organisation is only one of the uses to which prestige classes can be put.

For example, the Expanded Psionics Handbook takes the, in my opinion, sensible step of converting the old soulknife prestige class into a base class. The soulknife as a concept is pretty weak when looked at as the specialised training of an organisation, especially when one considers that the mechanics of the class followed the dead-end (in terms of game design, anyway) of "bonus powers" instead of adding effective levels of manifesting ability. The original descriptive text for the class doesn't even make mention of an organisation, except by way of a loose analogy to assassins.

I think using prestige classes as the distinctive methods of in-game groups is a fine thing, but that is not, nor should it be, the be-all and end-all of their use.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread. It's more common to see people suggesting the conversion of base classes into prestige classes - the paladin would be the canonical example, along with the bard (as was, indeed, done in Unearthed Arcana, albeit in 15-level form).

I can see a case for expanding the void disciple prestige class to 20-level form; it's already a 13-level class, and rearranging things to include seven more levels wouldn't be hard. Like the paladin and bard prestige classes in Unearthed Arcana, it seems to me that James Wyatt was trying to make the void disciple into a class which characters would follow for the rest of their careers once they entered it (in line with the flavour of ishiken in Rokugan), but did so by expanding it over more than ten levels rather than by increasing the prerequisites to a level where characters would generally enter the class at 10th level or so.

I'm not convinced that prestige classes necessarily need to fall into the 3-, 5-, or 10-level model suggested by the Dungeon Master's Guide advice on their design, but I do think that a consistent model would be a good thing. That is, one should either go for the suggested format, or rethink prestige classes as explicitly filling up the rest of one's pre-epic career and design them accordingly.

One could always go for a best-of-both-worlds approach - the void disciple could be shortened to a 10-level prestige class by chopping off the top three levels and making a new prestige class explicitly designed as an attractive alternative to filling up one's last few pre-epic levels with more levels of the base class(es) one started with. Void master, or something - not an automatic choice for every void disciple, but one that they would want to think about.

I think that, in general, one needs to think about the schtick of a prestige class and figure out whether or not it's a strong enough and unique enough concept to sustain a 20-level base class. For example, I would offer the samurai base class in Complete Warrior as a failure of design - this is not, to my mind, distinct enough from a fighter with a few specific feats to justify the existence of a whole base class. If you converted its Intimidation-based abilities into a feat chain, you could almost replicate the whole class using the fighter. By contrast, the samurai class from Oriental Adventures is, I think, distinct enough to justify being separated from the fighter (though the version in Rokugan by AEG is slightly better-designed and certainly fits the Legend of the Five Rings setting more).

The assassin would be a pretty dull base class, for instance - but the geomancer is potentially distinct and interesting enough to justify a 20-level version, if it were written well. I think the difference hinges mainly on whether or not the prestige class represents a specialisation of skills and features possessed by base classes - as in the assassin's case - or a concept not well-represented by the core rules - like the geomancer.

 

[Janx]

hmm, and I was planning on turning ranger and paladins into Prestige Classes....

Janx

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Not satisfied with the way Unearthed Arcana handles them, Janx?

 

[Mouseferatu]

A while back, I was actually working on a project that did just this for the DMG prestige classes, for eventual publication. The project got sidetracked, alas. (Me culpa, not the publisher's fault.) I still hope to get back to it eventually, though.

 

[Mouseferatu]

And for the record, speaking now as a gamer, not a writer...

I prefer new 20-level classes to PrCs in many circumstances. I just find them more enjoyable, and there are some PrC concepts that really (IMO) make better core classes.