Marshall class balanced with Fighter BAB or as is?

[blargney the second]

I'd say that, even when compared to the bard, the marshal as written comes out second-best.

FWIW, Marshals get better armor and weapons than bards.

 

[Mouseferatu]

FWIW, Marshals get better armor and weapons than bards.

True, but not, I think, much of a balancing factor in the grand scheme of things. Especially since the aforementioned BAB and hp make them less likely to be in the front lines to use said weapons.

There's just very little a marshal can do that a bard can't do better, unless you have so many encounters that the bard runs out of music, and I've rarely seen that happen.

I like the notion of the marshal being able to lead from the front, taking the fight to the foe while inspiring his comrades to do the same. Hence, the better BAB. That, plus a few extra skills, seemed to balance things out, though as I said, I didn't play the character long enough to be sure.

 

[Mouseferatu]

What I wouldn't mind, actually, is seeing a melding of the marshal and paladin concepts in (gasp!) 4E. To me, the notion of an aura of command/authority/faith/whatever that inspires oneself and one's allies to greater efforts is far more "paladin-like" than the ability to cast spells.

But that's a whole different issue.

 

[DragonTurtle]

I chose other changes, they are detailed in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=175631

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm currently working on an experimental marshal mutliclass fighter type. It seems to me that the marshal class is eminently suited to heavy multiclassing:

It has two good saves. Its hit points are adequate. It can partially make up for the BAB reduction by choosing a major aura that grants attack bonuses. All of its abilities work in heavy armor and while wielding a two-handed weapon or one-handed weapon and shield. And none of its abilities (except grant move action) require more than a swift action.

The tentative plan for the character is Marshal 8/Fighter 4/Hexblade 3 (Marshal 3/Hexblade 2/Fighter 4 at level 9 for early access to both mettle and melee weapon mastery). The plan is to eventually have minor auras for extra damage while in a flank and for all three of the saving throws and major auras for speed and melee attack bonus. The end result should be a heavy fighter with very good saves--especially against spells (since he will get to double dip his charisma bonus against spells) who makes his allies better at fighting while being pretty close to a standard fighter mutt character in his personal fighting ability.

Now, maybe that doesn't demonstrate anything about the marshal as an individual class because it is using fighter levels for a good deal of offensive capability (weapon specialization, melee weapon mastery) and hexblde levels for the defensive charisma synergy, but it would become absolutely incredible if you gave marshals full BAB. There would be little reason for every fighter type not to take two levels of marshal.

 

[Mouseferatu]

There would be little reason for every fighter type not to take two levels of marshal.

True. That's why (although I neglected to say so) that I agree with the suggestion, above, that the aura benefits be limited by Charisma modifier or marshal level, whichever is lower.

 

[frankthedm]

Maybe Full BAB in exchange for losing the grant move action ability. The martial ssems weak because he lets other PCs wreck destruction with full attacks. Almost Nothing else in the ruleset can achieve that. it is the equivalent of bestowing single move range pounce.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

There's just very little a marshal can do that a bard can't do better, unless you have so many encounters that the bard runs out of music, and I've rarely seen that happen.

What level do you see bards at?

 

[Felon]

Uggh. This topic comes up periodically, with folks suggesting fighter BAB and HD as the way to fix some perceived inadequacy. If you think this, then I gotta tell ya, you're suffering from some kind of disconnect here.

Maybe it's a perception that any character proficient with heavy armor and martial weapons is de facto intended for a career in front-line melee (after all, if it doesn't cast nukes or heals, what else is the point of it?) . Maybe it's the notion that a character can't be effective if it's a lackluster damage-dealer, that all classes should pack a whallop (and those that don't are therefore weak).

Whatever the case, please understand the simple truth: the marshal's role is to buff the party. The marshal kicks butt when he's helping the entire party kick butt. Put aside those notions that huge bursts of damage define effectiveness, With the marshal, it's about small, persistent bonuses spread out amongst several people.

Does giving it more BAB and HD, make it better at buffing? Nope, it's just a DM trying to make it into something it's not designed to be (a fighter analog). Any criticism of the marshal or suggestions about how to improve the class should stem from whether or not it is an effective buffgiver, not whether it's a great tank or melee superstar.

I'm glad to see at least some folks in this thread understand that. The marshal is lacking IMO as well, but the fix comes from making it better at its intended role. Here's why:

1) Its minor auras are mostly rubbish.
2) Only one minor and one major aura can be active at once. How many can you get before you just don't need any more? I'd say three of each.
3) Grant Move Action is a great ability (thoroughy underrated), but it doesn't gain enough uses to really offe rmuch appeal.
4) Here's the biggie: it offers a player nothing to do in a given round other than turn the spigut on its auras, which is a swift action. There need to be some tactical actions available.

I know adding BAB, hit dice, skill points, and save bonuses are the quick and easy fixes, but resist the temptation and just figure out what would make the class a better buffer. For me, it would involve:

1) Allowing certain minor auras to work in unison, or even collapse some into one. There's no great reason a bonus to Fort saves and a bonus to Con-based skill checks (all one of them) should be two separate auras.
2) Grant the class some feature that is based on making a tactical decision. My basic example is allowing the marshal to designate one ally every round who gets an extra bonus from the auras.
3) Give it some ability to remove debuffs. A marshal's job is to rally the troops, after all.
4) Give it some higher-level, capstone features to work towards. Maybe it can eventually grant either a move action or standard action.

 

[Thurbane]

I agree the Marshal is a little weak as is - Fighter BAB would be a good move.