D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[nevin]

gymnasts may require strength but their abilities are not based on it, go ask a runner or a weightlifter to start doing flips and handstands and it quickly become clear that acrobatics and athletics are two separate skillsets.

wrong. gymnasts abilities are based on strength , dexterity and body size and shape. All 3 are equally important. It's one of the few sports where someone literally has to have a balance of all 3 to even have a chance of being good.

 

[nevin]

Not true. Not only is One DnD allowing wizards to swap spells with a 10 minute prep time, but everyone is generally aware of needing to participate in combat, and generally aware of the type of combat they will be facing. No one travels into the heart of a volcano and is shocked to find enemies dealing and immune to fire damage.



Which largely have been panned and reduced, because it made sorcerers unbearably similiar to play.



Because they should be good at fighting. It is in the name.

no but in the forest when the fireproof enemies attack you you are f****ed but I guess your DM telegraphs everything.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Balance has everything to do with jumping and climbing = Strength.

A rope climb has nothing to do with balance. Pulling yourself up a ledge has nothing to do with balance. You seem to be solely picturing three/four point rock climbing for all types of climbing.

And frankly, other than the bare minimum balance of not throwing only part of your body in a direction, I don't see what balance has to do with jumping, or why that can't be handled well enough with a 10 dex.

All characters can invest in Strength thus gain agile Athletics.

The Fighter class benefits from Strength, and synergizes best with agile Athletics.

And what the heck does agile athletics mean in game terms? Or are you just saying they would be good at a single skill, like they already are?

 

[Emberashh]

gymnasts may require strength but their abilities are not based on it, go ask a runner or a weightlifter to start doing flips and handstands and it quickly become clear that acrobatics and athletics are two separate skillsets.

I dont remember if it was this topic but I had the idea to rename Acrobatics into Athletics, and Athletics into Conditioning.

It makes more intuitive sense, at least for a Western audience, to read Athletics and think of what Acrobatics does, and Conditioning fits better as a separate idea from that whilst still encompassing Athletics original coverage, and opening it up to even more ideas (skill driven resistances primarily), making the skill more robust.

 

[Yaarel]

I did just have a thought.

What if Fighters could add their dexterity and their strength together when making dex or str checks? That could not only give them a small buff, but also address this constant narrative that people actually trained in these things would need to be both dexterous and strong.

Honestly, the Fighter already has too much MAD-ness.

Strength-or-Dexterity, Constitution, kinda needs Wisdom Perception (not to mention certain builds), kinda needs Charisma social skills.

Then to force both-Strength-and-Dexterity?

To much.

I would rather.

Strength is agile gross motor skills, including body balance. Done.

Maybe even, give light-armor mobility Fighters an AC bonus from Strength in the sense of leaping and blocking.

 

[Chaosmancer]

D&D could actually have degrees of success. Hit by 5+ trigger X, hit by 10+ trigger X or Y, etc. The number would need to go up to account for a bigger range of outcomes, but frankly I'm tired of bounded accuracy's Harrison Bergeron effect, where no one is allowed to be exceptional because we have to let some first level spud rolling their dump stat have a decent chance of success and DM's want to have their players fight large rats post level 10.

I have added that for a few skills, giving bonus effects for getting 5 over the DC.

The problem isn't that though, that is on the result end. Unless we give fighters a unique ability to get extra results or have special DCs that won't come into play. The problem is on the roll side. What can you do to make the fighter do more than roll 1d20+mod+prof for their skills?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

with the trade off that they have to memorize the spells before they know what they will have to do. Or be a sorcerer and operate with limited spell pools. Why do fighters get to be combat utility all day long without playing a guessing game? Come on. You want to complain some spells are powerful sure I'll agree. But telling me that mages always have the spells they need and they are always able to use them? I call BS....

No one is "combat all day long". I have never, in 30+ years of gaming, seen an unlimited encounter day. The spellcasters drive rests. You rest when the characters with meaningful resources are low. And even if you didn't fighters dont have unlimited HP. But lets say they did... being ready for a theoretical 15th fight in a day which never occurs isn't meaningful. Its like how monks seemingly spent a decent chunk of their power budget on "not needing gear" as if the party spends so much time captured and stripped naked that's a worthy exchange.

Casters are powerful, versatile, and by benefit of having codified abilities not dependent on the DM dependent "make it up!", fairly straightforward. And they still get "make it up" as an option. Even fully drained of resources, if the mages in your group can't figure out something useful with cantrips and rituals then I don't know what to say.

 

[Yaarel]

gymnasts may require strength but their abilities are not based on it, go ask a runner or a weightlifter to start doing flips and handstands and it quickly become clear that acrobatics and athletics are two separate skillsets.

Weightlifting should be a SKILL. It is literally "training" in reallife.

A character that has high Strength, might be proficient in Athletics but not proficient in Weightlifting.

Often, women are Athletes but not necessarily Weightlifters. But both of these women would benefit from high a Strength ability.

 

[nevin]

A rope climb has nothing to do with balance. Pulling yourself up a ledge has nothing to do with balance. You seem to be solely picturing three/four point rock climbing for all types of climbing.

And frankly, other than the bare minimum balance of not throwing only part of your body in a direction, I don't see what balance has to do with jumping, or why that can't be handled well enough with a 10 dex.



And what the heck does agile athletics mean in game terms? Or are you just saying they would be good at a single skill, like they already are?

good luck on that one. though to be fair I've always thought Dex should be to hit, catch etc and ST should only be to damage. It's silly to me that dex helps you hit with a bow but it doesn't help with a sword. Just make ST to damage and Dex to hit and a modifier to anything requiring flexibility and accuracy and strength a modifier to raw power. Some skills like climbing could be affected by both.

 

[Emberashh]

Weightlifting should be a SKILL. It is literally "training" in reallife.

A character that has high Strength, might be proficient in Athletics but not proficient in Weightlifting.

Often, women are Athletes but not necessarily Weightlifters. But both of these women would benefit from high a Strength ability.

Thats getting too far into the weeds trying to simulate biology in a way that doesn't add anything to the game.

You are right that lifting should be skill driven, but theres no reason to separate it from your general moving, jumping, swimming etc stuff. (Hence why I like Conditioning as a replacement. Lifting fits right in with that)