Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[Brennin Magalus]

Mary Sue has no real meaning outside of fanfiction, despite what TV Tropes poster say.

Yes, cuz' a concept developed in one context cannot be appropriated for another.

...calli9ng Elminster a Mary Sue is nonsensical...

I don't think so.

...and insulting to Mr. Greenwood.

Oh well.

(Incidentally, it's loser not looser.)

 

[JohnRTroy]

I must say I agree with Krensky when it comes to the use of Mary Sue--it's meant for fan fiction, not as a general criticism for fictional characters. Half the characters in ALL fiction are wish-fulfillment, pictures of the writer, etc. I think the word is WAY overused.

I also must agree with Umbran that people are starting to get very close to personal attacks on Ed Greenwood himself. I hate to see an author get picked apart and psycho-analyzed by people who really don't know the man. (I'm getting a vibe people are thinking "oh my, Ed's a perverted geek" from the conversation).

As far as Drizzt and Gord falling into that category--I really have to disagree. Gord followed what I consider the Joseph Campbell Mythical Hero with an epic destiny, and Drizzt likely as well (though not as powerful). The thing is, novelists shouldn't ever have to follow game rules at all. I think the obsession with this is people want to see the characters "statted out" and that gets them into trouble from fans who can't stand the special quirks they get. (At least Gary was smart not to really stat out Gord except for a few hints). Like I said, this can be over analyzed in fiction to the extreme.

One Irony--It's almost like the people who do the most complaining about NPCs in FR are almost like Mary Sue's themselves--after all, they are the ones putting their own characters in a big shared world produced by a big company. I always saw FR as having so many NPCs are a way of saying "you're not the only heroes in this world, or the most important, so don't fill yourselves with hubris", and I always thought that fit the tone of the campaign. Put it this way--would people complain as much if they were plaing a MUD or MMORPG where you have hundreds of characters 10 times your level? If you look at it like that, it seems people are complaining way too much about FR, especially when the local DM is the ultimate arbiter of the effects of the campaign setting in your game session.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I must say I agree with Krensky when it comes to the use of Mary Sue--it's meant for fan fiction, not as a general criticism for fictional characters. Half the characters in ALL fiction are wish-fulfillment, pictures of the writer, etc. I think the word is WAY overused.

I think it is very much a grey area when a charcter passes into this geoup (sue hood) but I also think that this thread shows some darn good examples...I also want to say that Dan Brown and Josh Weaden are very popular and like authors...so when we can say there characters are falling into it, then I don't think Ed Greenwood should feel insulted for being in that company...

I also must agree with Umbran that people are starting to get very close to personal attacks on Ed Greenwood himself. I hate to see an author get picked apart and psycho-analyzed by people who really don't know the man. (I'm getting a vibe people are thinking "oh my, Ed's a perverted geek" from the conversation).

well when you take a public life style (he is a sort of celebrity) you have to expect some of this, however I think most if not all of this has been no worse then saying your best friend had a DMPC in that game last year you hated...dislikeing something and meaning to insult the person who did it are two diffrent things...

As far as Drizzt and Gord falling into that category--I really have to disagree. Gord followed what I consider the Joseph Campbell Mythical Hero with an epic destiny, and Drizzt likely as well (though not as powerful). The thing is, novelists shouldn't ever have to follow game rules at all. I think the obsession with this is people want to see the characters "statted out" and that gets them into trouble from fans who can't stand the special quirks they get. (At least Gary was smart not to really stat out Gord except for a few hints). Like I said, this can be over analyzed in fiction to the extreme.

QFT...had elminster and drizt never seen stat lines none of this would happen...or my personal theory that they should be stated as weak character the PCs can work with with out being over shadowed...(Imagin Elminster 4th fighter 5th rouge 3rd wizard 3rd cleric 5th mystic theurg and add silver fire...) (imagin drizt fighter 4 Ranger 5)

One Irony--It's almost like the people who do the most complaining about NPCs in FR are almost like Mary Sue's themselves--after all, they are the ones putting their own characters in a big shared world produced by a big company.

The irony isn't lost on me, I agree with this statement...

I always saw FR as having so many NPCs are a way of saying "you're not the only heroes in this world, or the most important, so don't fill yourselves with hubris", and I always thought that fit the tone of the campaign.

See that is the problem though...that is not how I run games...and I think I am in the majority (Hey this is the internet all opions are the majority right... )

Put it this way--would people complain as much if they were plaing a MUD or MMORPG where you have hundreds of characters 10 times your level?

Ironicly this is also what stops alot of my group (not all we have 3 wowers) from playing MMOs...we want to be the BIG DAMN HEROS...not just adventureing group 73...

 

[WalterKovacs]

I know that one example of Mary Sue I heard recently was the lead character of the Twilight novels. Someone had been doing a multi-part analysis of the Twilight books, and a large chunk was explaining why the main character was a Mary Sue.

She looks a lot like the author in terms of how she's described. Everyone either loves her or hates her ... and in most cases for no given reason. The character is good at everything, except for a minor flaw (in this case clumsiness) that rarely ever is actually bad for the character, and in fact, is an endeering quality for her love interest (the one she likes back, as opposed to every other guy who is also in love with her). Much time is taken to have people talk about how pretty/unique she is while she denies it.

One of the biggest issues is that a Mary Sue is incapable of having a meaningful character arc, because they are already so good/awesome/flawless that they can't really overcome obstacles and grow as a character.

There are different problems between Fan Fiction [or any adding to established fiction ... Chloe Sullivan on Smallville, for example, was a potential Mary Sue as she was a 'new character' added to the Superman mythos and at points in time was the girl that would be 'perfect' for Clark. Her character, however, has had sufficient flaws brought up, etc] and a new character in it's own work. RPGs have another issue as the problem with Mary Sues there are less to do with litterary issue as there is a risk of either a DM PC upstagging the players, or one player's PC being a spot light hog (or "DM's girlfriend/son/etc's PC" who has extra layers of plot immunity or uber-important artifact, etc).

In a tabletop game, certain things that would be ok in a normal story are more greivous, but in other aspects, the game table is more lenient. It's hard to avoid having PC's have tinges of Mary Sue, as long as the DM doesn't let them get too overboard. Any NPC that overshadows the group is going to build resentment, especially if it is on your side (an enemy that's better than you is a challenge to eventually beat).

 

[Plane Sailing]

I also must agree with Umbran that people are starting to get very close to personal attacks on Ed Greenwood himself. I hate to see an author get picked apart and psycho-analyzed by people who really don't know the man. (I'm getting a vibe people are thinking "oh my, Ed's a perverted geek" from the conversation).

I concur.

I think we have heard enough about Ed Greenwood, discussion about him (and Elminster) will stop now please.

By all means continue talking about other stuff related to 'Mary Sue', but I will close the thread if anyone finds themselves unable to comply.

Thanks

 

[S'mon]

Around season 5 of Buffy, there was another perfect Mary Sue, only, unlike Jonathan in season 4, she wasn't played up as a joke. A former boyfriend, Riley Finn, shows up in town, and his new wife, Sam Finn, is a textbook case.

No, because there is no indication there of any authorial identification with Sam. Sam is there to represent Buffy's lack of self-confidence, she's a 'Better Than You' character, not the intrusion of the scriptwriter into the story. Unlike (edited). Johnathan of course was a parody of the Mary Sue.

 

[S'mon]

Put it this way--would people complain as much if they were plaing a MUD or MMORPG where you have hundreds of characters 10 times your level?

Well, yes. I was playing the free trial of Age of Conan last week.

"Oh look, there's Valeria! I'm 9th level (in a game where the barmaids are mostly 20th level), it says over her head she's 80th level. Yet apparently she needs me to help her kill those four 8th level mooks over there to perform some minor quest..."

The game had a lot of that, and from what I can tell of MMORPGs, it's standard practice. I find it silly and annoying. If you don't want the NPCs killed, don't stat them.

 

[S'mon]

In a tabletop game, certain things that would be ok in a normal story are more greivous, but in other aspects, the game table is more lenient. It's hard to avoid having PC's have tinges of Mary Sue, as long as the DM doesn't let them get too overboard.

A PC can't be a Mary Sue without the GM's connivance. The PC in the Fear of Girls web-movies would count, especially the second one with the female players. Mary Sue-hood requires a certain amount of reality-bending around the character. In "Sim" freeform online gaming/writing that is easily done, but in a traditional RPG the GM controls reality. That's why Mary Sue-hood is much more common with GMPCs.

 

[Somebloke]

The lead of Ann Bishop's Black Jewels Trilogy seems to me to be a perfect example of a Mary Sue as a main character. The elements are all there- tragic background (abusive family who hurt or merely don't appreciate her), a small harem of vampire-esque loner nobles who vie for her affections, status as the most powerful being by far in the entire world, intelligent animal pets, the near-superpower ability for just about every single half-decent person in existance to love her, a 'true form' that has elements of unicorns and wolves and perhaps the most telling aspect of all- the fact that a good 50% (at least) of the book is devoted to people's various (invariably positive) reactions to her various awesomeness. I swear- just about every single chapter involved some form of hero worship being levelled at her. And the author still tried to convince she was a tragic figure. It was so blatantly the author's wish fulfillment fantasy converted into book form (so that, one suspects, teenage girls could buy into it).

Really, if anyone wants a picture perfect ideal of the Mary Sue, I recommend these books. Keep in mind these have been edited and made commercially available.

...

If anyone is a fan, I apologise, but it needs to be said.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Not exactly a Mary Sue, but I think the unremitting awesome of the Raven King in Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell gets mentioned far too often. Feels like once every 10 pages or so, at least in a footnote.

This is pure conjecture, but he might be an idealised lover for the author, a Byronic figure, dark, terrible, beautiful and, of course, awesome.