Master Summoner - take 2

[yennico]

Yes, you probably would never summon one of these creatures at that level, but if you did there is no way for it to overcome the protections of an opposing 16th level wizard (1d20 + caster level of 16 = 17 minimum). Even at the bonus I was thinking, the creature would have a 18 which could ignore the protections only on a 1 or 2.

You are right, no level 16 summoner would summon a celestial badger to attack a level 16 wizard. Even if the badger ignores the protections he nearly never hits the wizard, because the wizard or any level 16 character is also protected by other spells (e.g. mage armor, cat´s grace, etc.) or magical equipment.

Taking a 8th level spell, lets look at the Celestial Dire Bear. The SR for this creature would be 24 (12 + 5 + 2 + 5)with your version (able to bypass protections on a roll of 7 or less) and 29 (12 + 5 + 2 + 10) with my version (able to bypass protections on a roll 12 or less).

A hellcast has SR 19. With your version the hellcast has 19 + 2 + 10 = SR 31
with my version the hellcast has only 19+2+5 = 26

So, using your idea, even the highest level of summoning at that point (level 16) would only be able to bypass the protections about 1/3 of the time. Using my bonus it would be about 60% of the time. That still gives a significant chance of failure even for the high-level summoning spells.

You call it failure of a high level summoning spell.
Fighting a spellcaster of equal level is always a nasty and tough job.
Any bonus on SR for overcoming the protected areas is better than a normal spellcaster gets.
The ability is free for all summoned creatures. If the master summoner wants a 100% chance he can cast a targeted dispel.
If succesful the ability saves the master summoner either a dispel magic spell or another summon monster spell (if the target is protected by a protection vs good, the summoner now summons evil creatures)
Perhaps we can make a compromise: a bonus equal a chance of 50 % so a bonus of +3 at level 1 and +1 / 2 levels of master summoner. So the maximum is +8.

First, a horse isn't on any of the the Summon Monster (or even Summon Nature's Ally) lists.

It was only an example, and I agree it was a worse example.

3) It is still possible to dispell/dismiss/banish the summoned creatures, resulting in the loss of both spells

To banish the summoned creatures of a master summoner is not easy because of stronger control.

It was just an idea. It doesn't remove the concern about getting a quickened, mass version of a spell, just limits what it can be used on. For example, a Summon Monster VI spell can summon 1 creature from the level 6 list, 1d3 from the level 5, or 1d4+1 from the level 4 list. Using the Spell Enhanced Summoning ability, the character would have to treat the Monster Summoning spell as if it was 1 spell level lower. So that Summon Monster VI spell would be treated in all ways as a Summon Monster V spell instead (1 creature from the 5th level list, 1d3 from the 4th, or 1d4+1 from the 3rd). Basically, it just lowers the power of the creatures that the spell is summoning in return for being able to enhance them with another spell.

Do I understand you correctly: So using the ability on a Summon Monster VI combined with a mage armor spell summons 1d3 fiendish dire wolves or 1d4+1 celestial black bears. Each creature is affected by the mage armor spell.

 

[yennico]

Unless my calculations are wrong, there are many prestige classes that allow entrance at level 6. Here are a few that I quickly skimmed;

There exist prcs that allow entrance at level 6, but normally a character can enter a prc at level 7. I do not know if entering a prc at level 7 is an unwritten rule, but many creators used this rule.

DMG
Arcane Trickster,

not true.
Requirements: able to cast 3rd level arcane spells, so it must be at least a level 5 wizard/sorcerer.
Sneak attack +2d6 so it must be at least a rogue 3rd level.

Dragon Disciple, Red Wizard

true

Now, I have no problem on not allowing entrance to the class until 7th, I just wanted to point out that there are examples of other prestige classes (even in the core rules) that allow entrance as early as 6th.

ok.

 

[farscapesg1]

A hellcast has SR 19. With your version the hellcast has 19 + 2 + 10 = SR 31
with my version the hellcast has only 19+2+5 = 26

Not that it matters, but where does the extra 2 come into play? In the Dire Bear example it is because of the 2 extra hit dice. According to the Celestial template they get 5 + HD for SR. In the case of the Hellcat does adding 2 HD adjust it's SR? Is there a rule somewhere that shows this adjustment due to HD advancement?

You call it failure of a high level summoning spell.

I didn't say it is a failure of the spell, but a failure of the ability

Perhaps we can make a compromise: a bonus equal a chance of 50 % so a bonus of +3 at level 1 and +1 / 2 levels of master summoner. So the maximum is +8.

I can agree to that

Do I understand you correctly: So using the ability on a Summon Monster VI combined with a mage armor spell summons 1d3 fiendish dire wolves or 1d4+1 celestial black bears. Each creature is affected by the mage armor spell.

Yeah, that was the idea. Instead of usually being able to summon 1d3 Celestial Brown Bears, each affected by the mage armor spell, the character could only summon 1d3 Fiendish Dire Wolves each affected by the Mage Armor spell.
It's been my experience that summoning creatures from 2 levels lower then normal is usually not very effective. This allows those creatures to be summoned and enhanced more than they usually would, but at the cost of not being the most powerful creatures possible to summon.

 

[yennico]

Not that it matters, but where does the extra 2 come into play?

ooops I miscalculated the SR. The SR should be in your version 29 and in my version 24.

It's been my experience that summoning creatures from 2 levels lower then normal is usually not very effective.

That is true but the master summoner enhances each creature automatically with his other abilities (Augment summoning, improved augmentation, etc.). I do not know if it is worth to summon lower level monsters instead of a higher level monster.
With the number of creature the enhancements of the master summoner increase but can a low level creatures hit the enemies they are ordered to attack?

This allows those creatures to be summoned and enhanced more than they usually would, but at the cost of not being the most powerful creatures possible to summon.

Summoning more creatures from two level lower have the same CR as one from a high level but they are not so powerful as one high level creature.

 

[farscapesg1]

You may be right. I will have to sit down and work out the creature stats and compare them. Unfortunately, I don't have my books so it be a little while before doing this.

 

[farscapesg1]

Yennico,

Ok, I did some quick number crunching comparing summoning 1 Huge Fire Elemental and 1d3 Medium Fire Elementals (with Mage Armor). This is using a 10th level Master Summoner, so all creatures gain +4 to STR, DEX, and CON and an additional 2 HD. This is what a Master Summoner would get with using the version of Spell Enhanced Summoning where they had to summon as if the spell were one spell-level lower. I chose the Elementals just because they can provide a fair comparison (unlike comparing a Celestial Elephant to a Celestial Brown Bear). I am assuming the character can cast a 7th level spell for this purpose.

Huge Fire Elemental
STR 22, DEX 29, CON 22, INT 6, WIS 11, CHR 11
HP 18d8 + 144
BAB +12/+24 (not sure how to modify this for the extra 2 HD)
AC 21 (17 touch, 12 flat-footed)
Slam +19 (2d8+6 plus 2d8 fire) (2 Slams with a full attack)
Fort +11, Ref +19, Will +7

Medium Fire Elemental
STR 16, DEX 21, CON 18, INT 4, WIS 11, CHR 11
HP 6d8 + 24
BAB +3/+4
AC 22 [18 + 4 for Mage Armor] (17 touch, 17 flat-footed)
Slam +8 (1d6+3 plus 1d6 fire)
Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +1

So, even if the character summoned 3 of the Medium Fire Elementals (CR 3 creatures), I don't think they would hold a candle to just summoning 1 Huge Fire Elemental. Now it may be a little different using a different enhancement spell (Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, etc.) but I still don't think a player would choose to take this option using these rules. Of course, I could be wrong

Edit:

BTW, I just want to say thanks to everyone for the help on this.

 

[yennico]

Ok, I did some quick number crunching comparing summoning 1 Huge Fire Elemental and 1d3 Medium Fire Elementals (with Mage Armor).

Mage Armor raises the AC by 4 points. Raising the AC by 4 points on a d20 is raising the chance to miss by 20%. That sounds ok.

So, even if the character summoned 3 of the Medium Fire Elementals (CR 3 creatures), I don't think they would hold a candle to just summoning 1 Huge Fire Elemental. Now it may be a little different using a different enhancement spell (Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, etc.) but I still don't think a player would choose to take this option using these rules. Of course, I could be wrong

Blur and displacement are nasty spells for the enhancement
I would tone down the maximum level of a spell to be used by the spell enhanced ability to level 3.
The reason: a level 4 spell can be:
- invisibility greater... nobody without see invisibile sees these creatures. If the master summoner uses a silent and still summoning spell nobodxy knows that the creatures are there
- stoneskin costs 250 gp normally per creature.
- dimensional anchor to protect the creature of banishement, dismissal
- a monster with a polymorph spell on itself
- any extended level 3 spells or any empowered 2nd level spell.

 

[sfedi]

I don't know...
Summoning is something all spell casters can do.
And Druids are the best at it.

This PrC goes right against that.

I would make it more general, so that any spell caster class can take it.
And I'm really not sure how giving up two spell casting levels makes you a better summoner.

I'm wouldn't take it because of that.

OTOH, Control seems pertty strong. Although too specific.

 

[farscapesg1]

I don't know...
Summoning is something all spell casters can do.
And Druids are the best at it.

This PrC goes right against that.

I would make it more general, so that any spell caster class can take it.
And I'm really not sure how giving up two spell casting levels makes you a better summoner.

I'm wouldn't take it because of that.

OTOH, Control seems pertty strong. Although too specific.

Well, the point that Druids are the best at summoning is this class' main focus. In classic fantasy literature, wizards have always been the masters of summoning. With DND 3.X, this has been twisted around and made the Druid the master of summoning natural creatures, and wizards and clerics about equal for summoning extraplanar creatures (though in my opinion clerics get the upper hand with some of their non-"summon monster" summons spells).

What the class is going for is to re-establish the fantasy literature standpoint of wizards (or sorcerers if they want) to be the supreme summoners of extraplanar creatures bound to serve them.

As for the spellcaster level loss, I personally dislike it also. However, there is nothing else that a wizard can give up to balance the class. I suppose I could drop the first lost spellcaster level since they have to select an opposition school (similar to the Red Wizard prestige class). I'm worried that the class will become overpowered without any hinderances though. Some of the abilities (as pointed out by others) are fairly strong

 

[farscapesg1]

I don't know if Yennico will be looking at this, but I wanted to make a comment about the Spell Enhanced Summoning ability.

With the release of Heroes of Battle, this ability does not seem to strong now. The War Weaver class is a 5 level PRC that gives the caster the ability to cast spells on multiple comrades (up to 1 per Intelligence/Charisma bonus + himself). At 5th level, the range for these spells are increased one step (touch to short, short to medium, medium to long).

Thus, a War Weaver could cast Blur (or Displacement, or Mage Armor, or Invisibility, etc.) on himself and 4 other people within short range (if it is normally a touch spell) at 5th level.

To make that prestige class even stronger, a War Weaver can cast spells ahead of time into the "tapestry" that connects the members and release any spells stored with a single move action So, a 5th level War Weaver could release 5 spells to augment his comrades as a move action, then cast cast Fireball to soften the targets up.

So, allowing a single spell to augment summoned creatures doesn't even begin to appear to be broken compared to the War Weaver that is now in an official WOTC product. I'm sure others will say "Well, a support character can get away with more becuase they are helping improve their comrades." While I don't necessarily disagree, the War Weaver already gets a lot more than what I am proposing for this class.