Math fixes; can you clarify?

[Viking Bastard]

Sometimes, especially in threads about feats, I hear people talk about math fixes to 4e; that the original PHB math was faulty in some way.

Can ya'll clarify for me in what way? Was it errata'd? Fixed through feats somehow, or is that just something people are house ruling (and if so, how)?

 

[Mentat55]

The "math fix" feats people refer to are feats that resulted when the designers realized that PC attack bonuses were lagging behind high paragon and particularly epic monster defenses, and that PC non-AC defenses were falling behind epic monster attack bonuses.

The Expertise feats (Weapon Expertise, Implement Expertise, Versatile Expertise, and now the specific Expertise feats from Essentials) addressed the attack bonus issue. Paragon Defenses and Robust Defenses (now superseded entired by Improved Defenses from Essentials) and the Epic Fortitude/Reflex/Will feats patched PC defenses.

It seems that many DMs give players some of these feats for free as a house rule.

 

[Viking Bastard]

When/where were these expertise feats introduced?

 

[Mentat55]

The originals were introduced in PHB2. Versatile Expertise was introduced in PHB3. The very specific (and better) versions of the Expertise feats are found in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I don't have access to stuff outside the original core books (PHB/DMG/MM)—were these just flat bonuses or did they scale with level/tier?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

They all scaled with Tier. The original Expertise feat (and Versatile Expertise, I think...) scaled by +1 at 15th and 25th level, while the newer weapon/implement-specific feats scale the attack bonus at 11th and 21st. The newer ones also add riders to those weapon and implement attacks, some of which are worth feats on their own.

The defence feats now also scale with Tier (and are now available from Heroic). Each specific defence feat is +2/3/4 scaling with tier, and there are Superior versions if you have a 15 or higher in the stat connected to the defence it is boosting that have additional riders as well.

 

[Dausuul]

I don't have access to stuff outside the original core books (PHB/DMG/MM)—were these just flat bonuses or did they scale with level/tier?

They scale by tier, +1 per.

There have been other math fixes as well. For instance, in the first two Monster Manuals, damage values for monsters at Paragon and Epic tier were way low, resulting in long, grinding combats. Later MMs fixed this.

 

[drothgery]

I don't have access to stuff outside the original core books (PHB/DMG/MM)—were these just flat bonuses or did they scale with level/tier?

The original feats scaled at levels 15 and 25.
The newer ones (in the Essentials books and Heroes of Shadow) scale by tier.

 

[kaomera]

I don't have access to stuff outside the original core books (PHB/DMG/MM)—were these just flat bonuses or did they scale with level/tier?

If you're playing just with the first three books you don't need to worry about the "'math' fix". They where introduced because a number of players complained that PC bonuses did not scale at exactly the same rate as monster bonuses, resulting in differences in expected results at different tiers. IMO expecting different tiers to actually work differently is entirely reasonable. These are also the same feats that get labeled as "feat tax": they are so desirable that players want them more than any other feats so you'll see them on just about every character sheet at some point if you allow them. The big question becomes "when" and not "if".

Now, if you're using any newer material (specifically MM3 or the Monster Vault and upcoming products I'd assume) the assumption is that these feats are in play and that pretty much every character has them. Lower monster damage (often lower than the standards in the DMG for creating your own monsters) etc. meant that things tended to work out. However, the newer monsters are generally just better designed and IMO more fun. So while the feat taxes where not absolutely needed, the new stuff that takes them into account is better, so they're worth bothering with on that account.

If you want to implement them as a blanket bonus, I'd suggest maybe making them +0/+1/+2 by tier. This would allow PCs to "keep up" by other means, making the expertise feats themselves less of an auto-take (although a flat +1 attack is still very nice, especially with the extra bonuses from the ones in HoWS). Simply giving expertise feats out as a bonus IME does not do anything but give the PCs a flat power bonus. (And complicating things slightly there are some attacks, such as some racial powers, that are neither implement or weapon and therefore do not benefit from the expertise feats. Some of them now get a comprable scaling bonus and others do now, with no real explanation of why / why not...)

 

[C4]

I don't have access to stuff outside the original core books (PHB/DMG/MM)—were these just flat bonuses or did they scale with level/tier?

The original Expertises scaled at 1, 15 and 25 levels. The newer ones scale at 1, 11 and 21 levels. The original NAD (non-armor defense) boosters were just flat bonuses. The errataed ones and Improved Defenses scale at 1, 11 and 21. The epic NAD boosters are still a flat +4 bonus.

I know, it's a bizarre mess. The simplest solution is to just pick one level per tier -- say 3, 13 and 23 -- and give players a scaling +1 bonus at those levels.

If you're playing just with the first three books you don't need to worry about the "'math' fix".

Actually, a math fix is more helpful in a core-only game due to the way MM1 monsters are designed. Specifically, because of the elites and solos that have extra high defenses.