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Math fixes; can you clarify?

Viking Bastard

Adventurer
If you're playing just with the first three books you don't need to worry about the "'math' fix".

I have no idea if I'll bother with any of this or not; this seems to be a higher level bug and my game might never reach high levels. But to make any judgement, I need to understand the issue.

I know, it's a bizarre mess. The simplest solution is to just pick one level per tier -- say 3, 13 and 23 -- and give players a scaling +1 bonus at those levels.

If I do anything, I think I'd do something like this. I like house rules to be as simple as possible.
 

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kaomera

Explorer
Actually, a math fix is more helpful in a core-only game due to the way MM1 monsters are designed. Specifically, because of the elites and solos that have extra high defenses.
I'll admit that MM1 elites and solos have their defenses set too high. And while this could be dealt with, it tended to push players into choosing powers specifically to deal with the big bads. Add that to the fact that the higher defenses really didn't protect the elites and solos from the effects that really mattered (action-denial) and that's why I prefer the design of the newer stuff. There seems to have been some disconnect at some point between the idea that there was an optimum number of rounds that a combat should last and how to actually give elites and solos enough effect on the fight to make them "worth" 2 or 5 regular monsters. Giving everybody (PCs and monsters) would have been a good idea, IMO, but the math fix in terms of PC defenses tends to negate that.

There's also the question of "which monsters", of course. A lot (the majority? idk, I never really sat down and went through them that closely, but that would be my guess based on my experiences) of MM1 monsters do less damage than the formula in the DMG would suggest. If you're using ones that do "normal" ammounts of damage, or correcting the low damage values, or using a lot of custom creatures, then there's going to be much more of a problem.
I have no idea if I'll bother with any of this or not; this seems to be a higher level bug and my game might never reach high levels. But to make any judgement, I need to understand the issue.
Of course. And I'm sorry if my over-quotation of the phrase math fix seems snarky (and it is a bit snarky). I just feel like talking about the 4e math is kind of confusing because there's a very specific thing that people tend to mean by the term, and the math fix was more of a resetting of base values than an actual fix, although given that the stuff that came after it was (IMO) generally better it did have that effect in the end.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
From experience playing 4e when it first came out, I'd have to agree with the assessment that a math fix is/was more useful in a "2008 product only" game. Some of it could have been our DM, but monster defences were way too high, or our bonuses too low, and the monsters had far too many HP.

I should qualify that. In order to adequately challenge the party, especially in terms of monster damage output and longevity, encounter levels end up being in the Level +2, +3, or even +5 range, but the problem there is that the defences far outstrip what the PCs can hit, so you end up with long, grindy, At-will whiff-fest combats that can even be really swingy if the PCs roll really bad, and/or the monsters roll really well. Sometimes, it was not much fun at all, and frustrating nearly all the time.

For a good example, even the designers were aware of the kind of fight needed to challenge a group; the introductory module in the Forgotten Realms book features a Level +5 encounter. Doing that in a post MM3 game, would be a surefire way to get a TPK. At-level combats are challenging, while level +2s are downright dangerous. A Level -1 encounter is sufficiently tough for routine or minor fights now. Solos are also much improved, many of which are even usable without minion backup now.
 

Math was off for most leader type characters. They had powers that gav scaling attack bonuses (like righteous brand and lead the attack) that scaled with level. The problem was that they had to hit first and only then other pcs could hit at an expected rate.

The fix was feats that gave a scaling bonus to hit, which everyone could take, and attack bonuses that scaled with level were downgraded to a flat +3 bonus to hit usually and newer leader powers usually work on the leader himself too and usually as an effect and are not scaling to begin with...
 

Viking Bastard

Adventurer
So this "math bug" extended to both attacks and defenses, right? So the simplest fix is to just add tier (+1 per tier) to attacks and defenses?

So Attack, for instance, would be 1/2 lvl + tier bonus + other bonuses.
 


AntiStateQuixote

Enemy of the State
The gist of it is that all PC attack roll modifiers and defenses should scale +1/level over 30 levels. Without expertise and improved defenses and such it doesn't happen unless you take into account "specials" that are limited by race, class or some such other choice.

Attack bonus: +1/2 levels (15); +6 magic item; +4 ability increase (assumes bump attack stat every opportunity and no epic destiny increase); expertise (+3) gives +28 bonus to attack over 29 levels. Make up the +1 with any of many choices, and can easily exceed with multiple such choices.

Defenses work similarly.
 


Herschel

Adventurer
I have no idea if I'll bother with any of this or not; this seems to be a higher level bug and my game might never reach high levels. But to make any judgement, I need to understand the issue.

The issue isn't the math really, it's the players and their choices. There are a lot of ways to get bonuses in the game, but that doesn't mean players will use them. Leaders are full of win on this front yet if you don't use them, or build away from bonuses and towards healing, for example, there can be a pretty wide disparity in the number a character is actually attacking at. Add in a weapon user with a post-racial 16 attack stat to start and there can be quite a large disparity in attack bonuses.

The feats help equalize this except optimizers see them and get giddy and take them also. With the ways to get healing, either through skills or multiclassing, it also helps mitigate some plyers' choices but optimizers ignore those.

The feats give players more flexibility to have fun and build what they want.
 


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