D&D General Matt Colville on adventure length

[Scott Christian]

Except I don't. But nobody ever listens when I explain what I actually do, so there's little point in saying more than that.


I literally never said they did.


I'm aware. If there had been more and better systems built into healing, it would be significantly easier to provide well-built options supporting those preferences, rather than leaving every DM to kludge up their own approach.


It's a losing battle, Mike. Rules have been positively identified as the enemy. They must be destroyed so we can finally have good games, as opposed to all the bad games that bad DMs "hide behind" to conceal their wickedness and incompetence (which are not to be distinguished from one another; "bad" is "bad" no matter the context.)

Nobody listens because they don't understand your logic.
"I would quit playing the game of D&D if my character died," is not logical.
Characters in books die. Do you stop reading them? To quote @Paul Farquhar Superheroes die? Do you stop watching the movies?

Iron man dies. Black Widow dies. And yes, even the beloved Superman dies. Do you absolve yourself from all Superhero novels, comics, and films because this happens? No. Because it is one of the integral parts of human drama - death.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Nobody listens because they don't understand your logic.
"I would quit playing the game of D&D if my character died," is not logical.

Except I didn't say that and never did.

I said I would lose the enthusiasm to play in THAT CAMPAIGN if my character in THAT CAMPAIGN died. I've literally never said anything like what you just described.

Characters in books die. Do you stop reading them? To quote @Paul Farquhar Superheroes die? Do you stop watching the movies?

Depends! If I was deeply invested in a particular character and that specific character died, yeah, I might lose interest. If I wasn't that invested, probably not.

I stopped watching superhero movies for reasons entirely unrelated to whether characters die. (Mostly, related to serious writing flaws on the Marvel end, and the fact that DC keeps assigning directors who don't like the superheroes they're portraying and don't understand why anyone would like them.)

Iron man dies. Black Widow dies. And yes, even the beloved Superman dies. Do you absolve yourself from all Superhero novels, comics, and films because this happens? No.

Except I do. A universe that just kills off Superman permanently and irrevocably is not a universe I'm interested in paying attention to. That's just the fact of the matter. Killed off Superman, he's never coming back? Neither am I.

Do it as an "elseworld" noble sacrifice? Cool, that's a great scene that lets us see new sides of his character. Do it in a way that he's (clearly) not actually dead, but will have to deal with some consequences for a while? Sure, plenty of great stories have done that. Justice League did an amazing two-parter with that exact premise. Have him truly dead, but his friends and the world he inspired to be better rise up and find a way to bring him back? Haven't seen that before, that sounds like a wonderful continuation of a series where Superman gets to actually show why "paragon" characters matter. Etc.

But just killing off Superman permanently, never ever coming back, sorry guys it's for real this time? Nah. Miss me with that. I'll go back to the media that actually lets me see my second-favorite superhero doing what he does best: saving people and inspiring them.

Because it is one of the integral parts of human drama - death.

No. It is simply one possible part of human drama. It's not the only one. It's not even necessarily a good one--sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not.

 

[Scott Christian]

Except I didn't say that and never did.

I said I would lose the enthusiasm to play in THAT CAMPAIGN if my character in THAT CAMPAIGN died. I've literally never said anything like what you just described.

That is literally the point I am making. You QUIT THAT CAMPAIGN because you die. Under no other circumstance, in the rules of D&D, do you not imagine your character or their relative coming back. (Think of the all the spells that can bring you personally back, and then think of all the backstory elements that could pull another character in.) But you CAN"T do that. No. You have to quit - even though most of the rules around the game revolve around combat and dying.

It reminds me of the Reddit posts where the DM asks: "All my players want to be property managers and own railroads, but D&D won't let me do that. What should I do?"

Except I do. A universe that just kills off Superman permanently and irrevocably is not a universe I'm interested in paying attention to. That's just the fact of the matter. Killed off Superman, he's never coming back? Neither am I.

And this is perfectly ok. Nothing wrong with it. I said that earlier. But if that is the type of TTRPG you want, then play a game that doesn't have dozens of rules and spells and rolls that revolve around death. Pick something else.

*Please Read: Look, I am with you. My own death rules for a different system revolve around having "near death" experiences. I dislike how D&D pinches the DM. I dislike the rules around death. But, I do accept they work for the system. Don't die as a young adventurer, and you live long enough to keep going with a bit of spell protection. Live long enough, and you are always brought back. That is D&D. If you want it different, then play a different system. (Or at the least, petition for a part of the DM's Guide that has a "no death rule" in it.)

 

[Older Beholder]

It certainly does not “work fine” when it punishes the innocent.

Are you still talking about Rotten Tomatoes?
If so, how are they punishing the innocent?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That is literally the point I am making. You QUIT THAT CAMPAIGN because you die. Under no other circumstance, in the rules of D&D, do you not imagine your character or their relative coming back. (Think of the all the spells that can bring you personally back, and then think of all the backstory elements that could pull another character in.) But you CAN"T do that. No. You have to quit - even though most of the rules around the game revolve around combat and dying.

You...did read how I repeatedly talked about the permanent and irrevocable parts, right?

People aren't talking about deaths with take-backs. They're talking permanent, irrevocable deaths. And, usually, purely random ones.

Permanent, irrevocable, random character death is deeply demoralizing to me. I have said this several times. Every single time, people ignore some or all of what I say and go off on a tirade about things I never said, accusing me of things literally directly contradictory to what I spoke of. You have just done this yourself.

Do you see now why I am reluctant to explain further? It never works. Even when I was extremely clear, explicitly laying out my definitions with concrete examples.

 

[Scott Christian]

You...did read how I repeatedly talked about the permanent and irrevocable parts, right?

People aren't talking about deaths with take-backs. They're talking permanent, irrevocable deaths. And, usually, purely random ones.

Permanent, irrevocable, random character death is deeply demoralizing to me. I have said this several times. Every single time, people ignore some or all of what I say and go off on a tirade about things I never said, accusing me of things literally directly contradictory to what I spoke of. You have just done this yourself.

Do you see now why I am reluctant to explain further? It never works. Even when I was extremely clear, explicitly laying out my definitions with concrete examples.

I did read the part you mention here... yet you failed to mention the beginning of this thread. No one on this thread talked about only death. Again, as I mentioned before (which you carelessly left out) they are talking about D&D! The game with there are dozens of ways to revive you. The game where you get three saving throws at first level (up to 24 with the right spell combinations). Yeah, that is the game we are talking about.

You keep talking about a game that is not 5e D&D. And that is the problem people responding to you have.

 

[Lanefan]

That is literally the point I am making. You QUIT THAT CAMPAIGN because you die. Under no other circumstance, in the rules of D&D, do you not imagine your character or their relative coming back. (Think of the all the spells that can bring you personally back, and then think of all the backstory elements that could pull another character in.) But you CAN"T do that. No. You have to quit - even though most of the rules around the game revolve around combat and dying.

In fairness to @EzekielRaiden , I think he's mostly referring to character death where revival for whatever reason isn't a viable option; which even in 5e is usually the case at low levels and-or when a party doesn't have the right casters or revival items on hand when far afield.

 

[GrimCo]

Random character death is part of low level play. It's been since forever. Unlike older editions, 5e nerfed it with abundance of healing, pcs with more hp, cantrips like Spare the dying and death saves. On top of that, there aren't things like 3.x edition greataxe with x3 crit modifier where cr 1/2 orc with that weapon can on crit (3d12+12 dmg) one shot perma kill lv 1 barbarian, even lv 2-3 barbarians go into negatives with one decent crit from that thing.

To completly avoid it, it's better to just skip first few levels and start at lv 4-5.

@EzekielRaiden

You said that you are more ok with your character loosing limbs than getting killed. In hypotetical situation, instead of getting killed by random orc #23, your character looses a leg. You get makeshift cool pirate peg leg. And mechanicaly, you get disadvantage on all dex rolls (both save and skills), half speed, cant run/jump or use dash action. Why is it less demoralising to play that kind of character than just rolling new charater?

 

[Maggan]

I might be crazy, but I don’t really think that I have a say in why other people will or won’t play in a campaign.

So to me, ExekielRaiden can play whatever they find fun, and not play things they don’t find fun.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think it’s great and all that people have campaigns and DMs where death in 5e is not an issue for them, but it sounds to me like that’s not EzekielRaiden’s experience and no amount of trying to tell them that their experience is wrong is going to alter that.