Mearls on Controller design and At-Will balance

[Leatherhead]

Am I the only one that thinks that class roles should be upheld primarily by class features instead of the classes powers? Putting them on the powers leads to all kinds of multiclassing problems.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Having slept on this topic, I'm a little taken aback at the idea that scorching burst is a sub-par controller at-will.

When I first looked throught the PH, scorching burst stood out. Only area at will. Period. Twin Strike was often pointed out as being clearly superior to Sure Strike - but it only hit twice for 1[w] - Scorching burst might hit up to 9 targets, and still gets a primary stat bonus to damage. The other wizard at-wills are also unique in the PH. Cloud of Daggers creates a barrier, however minor (and inflicts auto damage that can kill a minion, even Reaping Strike doesn't do that). Thunderwave is the only close at-will in the PH, and pushes multiple targets multiple squares - Tide of Iron is recognized as a great fighter at will and it only pushes 1 target 1 square. Ray of Frost is the only at-will that inflicts the slowed condition. Magic Missle is useable as a basic attack, and has a very long range.

They're /all/ very strong at wills. Scorching Burst is the kind of thing you'd take as an encounter via dilitante or multiclassing and be happy with, because other classes don't even get a burst 1 among thier level 1 encounter attacks. And it's sub-par?

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Then it's just a matter of being able to target folks. In KoSF we found that the large numbers of baddies were always available for flaming burst. Mix and match that with flaming sphere (which may be the best daily in the game) and the wizard cleans house. Toss in a fighter to keep people where you want them and you've got a LOT of damage.

Mark

My Int 20 wizard did great in KotS. Then we moved on to Thunderspire Labyrinth where:

- there are no minions, anywhere. At least that I've seen.

- Duergar are the main enemies for a lot of it. The designer who updated duergar to 4e decided it'd be a great idea to give them most of the resistances and immunities that the 3e version had. So they're immune to illusion ("Goodbye, Illusory Ambush!") and had 10 points of resistance to fire (Scorching Burst, Flaming Sphere) and poison ("I get stinking cloud! Isn't it great that the majority of our enemies are effectively immune to it?") There was a reason why they moved away from giving monsters whole lists of immunities and high resistances. A good reason.


There's also a strong DM input into how effective a wizard is. Our DM plays most monsters fairly intelligently, so once they realize we have a controller they only bunch up when they have to. A lot of the time I can hit maybe two enemies for 1d6+Int with Scorching Burst, and it really only starts to be very effective when I can get three.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Party wizard's magic missile +4 vs. Reflex, 2d4+4 damage.
My twin strike: +7 vs AC, twice, 1d10 damage.

I usually hit at least once, and while my average damage is lower, it's a lot more consistent. +4 vs. +7 is a really big difference at low levels, and Ref. defense isn't usually THAT much lower than Armor.

Yes it usually is 2 or 3 points lower 90% of the time which put it on par with your +7. On average it is 2.75 point lower than AC if you check every monster in the MM. We know that thanks to a very dedicated stat cruncher.

It is even more glaring when you use an attack that targets will since it is on average 3.31 points lower than AC.

My combat mage has 5 level of experience at this point; he has dealt the most total damage in every single encounter. I bothered to keep count a few time but it's not even close and rather annoying to the other player (''Look, I did twice as much damage as you!'').

The only times it won'be true is when we are facing solos or maybe a very small number of elite.

If the wizard in your party is useless, it's because a lot of poor decisions are being made, from character creation to tactics. And tactic wise, some of the poor decisions being made are bound to also be the responsibility of his team mates. Normally, allies play a vital role in setting up good kill zone. You can't just ignore your wizards in your decision making and hope he'll get a good clear shot at the melee when his turn come.

For example, my rogue ally always use that power that slide victims in way that position them in an area where I can blast as many BGs at the same time as possible. I return the favor by then blasting these people with effects that will allow the rogue to sneak attack on his turn. The fighter routinely joins the fun with Tide of iron and using covering attack to help me withdraw when I move in for a close blast. I usually get over 3 target with burning hand that way.

 

[Cryptos]

I think it's interesting that the "Controller" in 4e is supposed to be what most would call a Debuffer in an MMORPG. This is a very useful role in a group (my ranger Daily which weakens a foe is extremely effective), but the wizard, currently, doesn't cut it. Since they seem to know this, it will be interesting to see if it's "fixed" in Arcane Power. (Is that before or after PHB2?)

My initial impression, pre-release, of what they meant by controller was probably colored by the EQ / EQ2 Enchanter - Stuns, Mesmerize, Debuffs, Buffs, Aggro Control (directing monsters to attack different targets instead of the one p***ing them off) and Damage over Time. The EQ enchanter, for a player on the ball, was the traffic cop of combat: Stop, Go, Go faster, Go slower, Yield, Spin around and fall on your ass, etc.

I was a little surprised then to see what the Wizard became in the 1st PHB.

I was a little more surprised with the durations nerf (there aren't any durations, really, just a duration roll that has a 50-50 chance of ending an effect every six seconds.) Which is going to have an impact on any attempt to control anything.

I'm a lot more surprised that, more than 10 years after millions upon millions of gamers identified what a 'controller' should do in combat, Wizards of the Coast was toying with the idea that it meant "do damage to several targets at once." Aggro, or AI aggression, was the MMO's way of simulating what a DM would do if something kept wailing on a monster: have the monster prioritize targets according to who it sees as the biggest threat. Doing area damage when you're controlling is often a big no-no... you don't want to make combat harder to control by having everything p***ed off at the controller. Objectively, if you're a goblin, who do you want to hit: the heavily armored, hard to hit guy that took a swipe at your friend with a sword or the guy in a bathrobe that just hit you and five of your friends by making fire shoot up out of the ground? The existence of the Defender, to get targets off of people in bathrobes, suggested to me even more that controllers would be more "controlling" and less damaging.

I feel a little bit better that they acknowledge that their first attempt at the Controller role wasn't really very... controlling... although shockingly, controllers still don't seem to have as broad a range of effects as even the ancient (by today's standards) Enchanter in an early MMO from 10 years ago. Sure, there are lots of powers out there... doing very similar things.

I hope that they provide updated versions of the old At-Wills in Arcane Power (and the Wands that boost/emulate them.) It seems only fair that if they're going to change things up, it should be published in something a Wizard player is likely to own.

 

[Rechan]

Am I the only one that thinks that class roles should be upheld primarily by class features instead of the classes powers? Putting them on the powers leads to all kinds of multiclassing problems.

So what if multi-classing causes you to muddle your role? You don't have to be fully defined by your role.

Besides, all builds have a sub-role. Paladins are defender/leaders. Several fighter builds are Defender/striker. Swordmages are Defender/Controller. So multi-classing only helps strengthen this a little bit.

 

[Rechan]

If the wizard in your party is useless, it's because a lot of poor decisions are being made, from character creation to tactics. And tactic wise, some of the poor decisions being made are bound to also be the responsibility of his team mates. Normally, allies play a vital role in setting up good kill zone. You can't just ignore your wizards in your decision making and hope he'll get a good clear shot at the melee when his turn come.

Or, you know, he's fighting against a monster that his abilities attack the wrong defense.

He has Scorching Burst and Magic Missile? Well, we're fighting skirmishers and lurkers, who have fat Ref defenses. Sorry, wizard. Same with Ray of Frost or Thunderwave vs. Brutes (Fort is oft higher than AC). Unless the wizard has a 'paper rock scissors' choice for his powers, and is willing to just use the same powers over and over, picking the right enemy, he's not going to deliver.

Aside from one Dragon article, the Wizard has no early spells that go after Will.

If the argument is "Well the wizard is strong if you're built and played right", well then one could argue any class is strong when they're built and played right.

 

[Rechan]

It also saddens me that they aren't sticking with the notion that a Controller is a "battlefield morpher", as someone else put it. Being able to summon up persistent zone effects, or sustainable zones, or anything else that says "Hey, if anyone walks over here, you are screwed" really jazzes me. I like being able to change the very field. I felt the Wiz didn't have enough of these, and now the designers are saying "That's not even their purpose any more" makes me a sad panda.

 

[brehobit]

Party wizard's magic missile +4 vs. Reflex, 2d4+4 damage.
My twin strike: +7 vs AC, twice, 1d10 damage.

#1 a striker better be doing more damage to a single target.
#2 You have a 20 Dex, and the wiz has an 18 int? Ick.

If you both have the same attack stat, the wizard will be hitting with a single attack slightly more often than you (as someone else said, reflex is generally about 2.5 lower than AC).

Assume you both hit 50% of the time. He'll average 5 points of damage (2d4+5) and you will have 5.5 points. But with hunter's quarry you'll be doing a lot more.

When you toss in area attacks the wizard will rock. If your wiz has ray of frost and magic missile, they are going to be a sub-par striker. But MM, a burst and a blast (human) they will do quite well.

20 int, 13 wis, 13 con staff implement human works very well indeed.

 

[Rechan]

I can see that, but I don't see how a wizard misses all that often. He almost has to have a 20 int (both attack and def stat), so at 1st level you are +5 to attack vs. reflex. That's about the same as +8 vs. AC, which is about as good as anyone other than a rogue gets (+9 with 20 dex, fighters are MAD enough that they can't generally get the 20 str). If you take a tiefling you've got +6 to hit with flaming burst which _is_ as good as it gets.

For one thing, it's wrong to say "Oh, in order to be worth it, you have to have a 20 right off the bat." That's just bad design, considering you have to min-max immediately.

Secondly, that means that a standard array wizard (16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10) sucks, because he doesn't have 20; he can only has 18 with a racial.

I personally feel dirty if I start a game with 20 in a stat. I often prefer to pick a race with a +2 in my secondary stat, put the 14 in the secondary, and thus have 2 16s, rather than an 18 in the primary and a 14 in the secondary.