Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.

 

[Oofta]

Thanks for confirming my point, by immediately telling me to go elsewhere.

If elsewhere serves your needs and desires better, why wouldn't you go elsewhere?

I can complain all I want that my phone doesn't play the latest graphics-intense video game, but if that's what's important to me I'll go get a dedicated console or a PC.

No game, no product on earth, can be exactly the right product for everyone. I don't see how it's sacrilegious to acknowledge that.

 

[Oofta]

Not to pick on you, because I do see this idea crop up quite a bit, but I think that ignores something pretty important. D&D, and especially D&D 5e, is the biggest game out there. By far. If I complain about Facebook editing my news feed, that doesn't mean the proper advice is to move to Myspace. "I like 90% of what 5e does, and I don't want to fall out of the 5e ecosystem, but I'd be happier if they moved in a somewhat different direction" doesn't seem to be criticism that warrants abandoning the game.

Which I get. I'm just acknowledging reality. Personally I'd love a new car that was styled like a 30s roadster. They don't exist outside of custom builds so I go down to my local dealer and buy the next best thing. Based on sales, it seems like they made the right call with 5E. But to quote Spock "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

 

[DM Howard]

Reread my post. I did not attack every single document on the DMs Guild. There are certainly gems in there, but the majority is not worth the storage it takes up.

I don't see DMs Guild products as competing with my FLGS dollars, because I make the choice to buy in-store because I want my store to stay around and because most of the DMs Guild content isn't worth it to me.

What I contend is that DMs Guild provides a replacement for real 3rd party support. WOTC really burned their bridges in 4E and now it is coming to bite them in the butt. Their supposed "support" for retail stores is becoming all the more hilarious with their PDF treatment of Eberron not to mention their "organized" play program. I've been an AL DM for every season of AL up until ToA and I would say that it is barely a step up from "do what you want".

Core 2E has none of that. There was certainly a huge amount of player facing supplements in 2E to go along with the settings and DM facing stuff, but the Core 3 was a beautiful, complete, amazing version of the game, surpassed on IMO by BECMI.

OK, I would agree if we are talking about the core 3. Good point!

You must have started with later 2E with the parlance more like back to 1.5E).

And D@mn it. You people (in this thread, not you specifically DM Howard) and your analogies are making me hungry. I'm grading papers at 11:00 on a Friday night (which says volumes about my life right now) and all you can talk about is bakeries and restaurants. I'm a mile from a decent bakery... and it's closed! *sigh* Time to raid the fridge

And get back to grading... if I plan on having any weekend.

*edit* For additional commentary and food thoughts...

I did, definitely near the end of 2E.

Man, I really want some donuts now!

Ask your LFGS if they would order a book for you if it is not in stock. I’ve done this with a few different stores and it is always greeted with an eager “of course we can do that for you!” I’m willing to wait in order to help them out in a small way. I’ve got plenty of stuff that I haven’t fully read to fill up my time while I anticipate their call that my order is in.

That's a good point DM Dave1. I have done that for a few things, but there isn't a whole lot they can actually get their hands on, physically, to sell or stock.

There is the Tome of Foes they have been reliably able to stock and that's it. He said it is hard to get 5E 3rd Party products from his suppliers.

 

[jamesstreissand]

If elsewhere serves your needs and desires better, why wouldn't you go elsewhere?

I can complain all I want that my phone doesn't play the latest graphics-intense video game, but if that's what's important to me I'll go get a dedicated console or a PC.

No game, no product on earth, can be exactly the right product for everyone. I don't see how it's sacrilegious to acknowledge that.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble dude, but at no point did I complain about 5e. I haven't mentioned the system, it's mechanics, etc so much as once.

What I responded to (and had you taken time away from grandstanding, you'd have noticed) was Mike's proclamation on the WHY of 5e.

Mike's pretty clearly characterizing people who like the mechanical side of things as not worth marketing to, designing for, etc. I think its a shame, is all I'm saying.

 

[TwoSix]

Which I get. I'm just acknowledging reality. Personally I'd love a new car that was styled like a 30s roadster. They don't exist outside of custom builds so I go down to my local dealer and buy the next best thing. Based on sales, it seems like they made the right call with 5E. But to quote Spock "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

I think they made A right call with 5e. My personal belief is that the core could be expanded with some new options (outside the class/subclass/feat paradigm) without violating the overall simple core that currently defines 5e. Not everyone believes that, of course, but I'll continue to advocate in that direction.

 

[DM Howard]

I think they made A right call with 5e. My personal belief is that the core could be expanded with some new options (outside the class/subclass/feat paradigm) without violating the overall simple core that currently defines 5e. Not everyone believes that, of course, but I'll continue to advocate in that direction.

I agree. Perhaps an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons would be a good idea.

 

[jamesstreissand]

I think they made A right call with 5e. My personal belief is that the core could be expanded with some new options (outside the class/subclass/feat paradigm) without violating the overall simple core that currently defines 5e. Not everyone believes that, of course, but I'll continue to advocate in that direction.

A stronger mid-level set of options (like a multiclassing 2.0) as an optional system could be really satisfying for us. I don't think they'll go for it though, everything else is easy cash.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble dude, but at no point did I complain about 5e. I haven't mentioned the system, it's mechanics, etc so much as once.

What I responded to (and had you taken time away from grandstanding, you'd have noticed) was Mike's proclamation on the WHY of 5e.

Mike's pretty clearly characterizing people who like the mechanical side of things as not worth marketing to, designing for, etc. I think its a shame, is all I'm saying.

They're not worth marketing *5E* to. Why would they? They know the game isn't going to give those players what they want, so why bother trying to sugarcoat things or basically fib to them? "No, no... 5E can do what you want! Of course it can! Just give it a try!"

Would you be happier if Mike and Co. tried to snowball all of you and treat you like idiots? Being honest at least lets you know what's truly going on.

 

[TwoSix]

I agree. Perhaps an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons would be a good idea.

A stronger mid-level set of options (like a multiclassing 2.0) as an optional system could be really satisfying for us. I don't think they'll go for it though, everything else is easy cash.

Yep. That's what I'd love to see, a mechanically focused supplement like 3.5's Unearthed Arcana or Player's Handbook 2 that gives a lot of new options. Some kind of scaling feats with menus of options, alternative multiclass options (maybe 3-5 level classes), alternative class features, etc.

 

[jamesstreissand]

They're not worth marketing *5E* to. Why would they? They know the game isn't going to give those players what they want, so why bother trying to sugarcoat things or basically fib to them? "No, no... 5E can do what you want! Of course it can! Just give it a try!"

Would you be happier if Mike and Co. tried to snowball all of you and treat you like idiots? Being honest at least lets you know what's truly going on.

Since you can't seem to get it through your thick ing skulls;

I am ONLY saying I think it's a shame that one of the biggest designers out there doesn't think of us as being welcome at the table. That's all. That's it. Nothing else.

I hope I don't have to explain why I'd like a "there's still a seat for people who like the gaming aspect" approach.