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Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 


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Mercurius

Legend
Parsing the quote, I interpret him as saying that there is some correlation between "many" of the folks who want to gatekeep via rules complexity and those who have an issue with women in the game. I have no idea what he's basing that on, but it seems like a valid hypothesis.

He is not saying such folks are tryin to keep women out of gaming via rules complexity. Nor is he saying that all or even most "crunch-friendly" folks don't like women.

As for the fired part, I can understand his frustration if he feels that there are such folks.

Anyhow, an aspect of this conversation that hasn't been touched upon--at least based upon my cursory skimming of the thread--is that it is far easier to "dial up" complexity than "dial down." In other words, it is easier to add in bits and bobs to complexify your own game than to take an already complex game and simplify. This is why a game with a high baseline level of complexity ends up as gatekeeping.

On a related note, as someone who has been into D&D since the early 80s, it seems that the culture around homebrewing has changed. "Back in the day" (say, TSR era) it was assumed that every campaign or group or DM had their own house-rules; it was one of the first questions you asked: "What are the house rules?" Now it seems like there's more...tension? hesitancy?...around the whole idea of house-ruling, as if the rule isn't real or legit unless it has WotC's stamp of approval.

With that in mind, if you aren't happy with 5E's level of complexity, I see a few options:

1) Play something else. Pathfinder is a great game produced by a great company, and there's tons of folks playing it.
2) Play 5E but adjust it to your liking. Most players just want to play and are willing to tolerate house rules.
3) Play 5E as is, but be unhappy about it.

While we're all entitled to like what we like and I see nothing wrong with voicing what we like and don't like, it just seems that at a certain point, the third option is counter-productive. Why not move to 1 or 2? If you want to play in Adventurers League, then you have to balance that with your desire for more complex rules. But if you're running your own game, then 1 or 2 are valid options. I suppose one case in which you might be out of luck is if you are a player and unhappy with the rules options, but then you can still pretty easily find a PF game and get the rules complexity and customization you want.

In the end, I think many/most of those who insist on the 3rd option do so for reasons other than pragmatism or game preference. They may simply just want to be mad at WotC for not producing the game they want. I would hope that at some point that grows tiresome enough that they'll move on and find and play a game they enjoy.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Parsing the quote, I interpret him as saying that there is some correlation between "many" of the folks who want to gatekeep via rules complexity and those who have an issue with women in the game. I have no idea what he's basing that on, but it seems like a valid hypothesis.

He is not saying such folks are tryin to keep women out of gaming via rules complexity. Nor is he saying that all or even most "crunch-friendly" folks don't like women.

As for the fired part, I can understand his frustration if he feels that there are such folks.

Anyhow, an aspect of this conversation that hasn't been touched upon--at least based upon my cursory skimming of the thread--is that it is far easier to "dial up" complexity than "dial down." In other words, it is easier to add in bits and bobs to complexify your own game than to take an already complex game and simplify. This is why a game with a high baseline level of complexity ends up as gatekeeping.

On a related note, as someone who has been into D&D since the early 80s, it seems that the culture around homebrewing has changed. "Back in the day" (say, TSR era) it was assumed that every campaign or group or DM had their own house-rules; it was one of the first questions you asked: "What are the house rules?" Now it seems like there's more...tension? hesitancy?...around the whole idea of house-ruling, as if the rule isn't real or legit unless it has WotC's stamp of approval.

With that in mind, if you aren't happy with 5E's level of complexity, I see a few options:

1) Play something else. Pathfinder is a great game produced by a great company, and there's tons of folks playing it.
2) Play 5E but adjust it to your liking. Most players just want to play and are willing to tolerate house rules.
3) Play 5E as is, but be unhappy about it.

While we're all entitled to like what we like and I see nothing wrong with voicing what we like and don't like, it just seems that at a certain point, the third option is counter-productive. Why not move to 1 or 2? If you want to play in Adventurers League, then you have to balance that with your desire for more complex rules. But if you're running your own game, then 1 or 2 are valid options. I suppose one case in which you might be out of luck is if you are a player and unhappy with the rules options, but then you can still pretty easily find a PF game and get the rules complexity and customization you want.

In the end, I think many/most of those who insist on the 3rd option do so for reasons other than pragmatism or game preference. They may simply just want to be mad at WotC for not producing the game they want. I would hope that at some point that grows tiresome enough that they'll move on and find and play a game they enjoy.

The quote isn't difficult to parse: there are folks who like to use the rules as weapons against other people. The context for the quote is a reaction to cyberbulluing that Mearls was witnessing in the wake of Kate Welch being hired.
 


pemerton

Legend
What is the assassin now? If you hit via attack X do Y dice of damage. The End. Basically, the entire class has been thrown out replaced by "how can I roll more dice? I know, I will choose assassin"
It's pretty clear that people who like the mechanical aspect are not the people WOTC is interested in marketing to
I don't think both these claims can be true.

To me, 5e does seem rather mechanically focused - especially on combat mechanics. This is manifested in a whole lot of ways, including the many departures from traditional spell dice expressions to ensure mechanical balance in damage inflicted across classes.

It's "narrativeness" seems to consist in the relative lack of non-combat mechanics.

regardless of whether or not the rules support a narrative, (as 3e or 4e would) it's still up to the DM to allow the rules to exist as written or be interpreted the way the player intends.

The only difference in the game system is options. If that's what you want, that's great but I'd not hide behind the "DM has too much power" argument because he or she has always had it. If you're having fun it's because the DM and the entire group is enabling you to some extent. You're not doing it because of the rules or on your own.
This isn't true. I won't comment on 3E, but 5e doesn't differ from 4e simply in terms of options.

5e differs in terms of action resolution mechanics, especially non-combat mechanics. And the differences in PC build are also significant to resolution - 4e PCs have powers that can be used as "descriptors" that are spent to enhance a range of actions that are thematically apt, which allows 4e to play more like a free descriptor game. (Eg in a skill challenge with the goal of entering a guarded temple, the player of a wizard spend his daily power Charm of the Dark Dream - a domination power whereby the wizard turns into a mist and enters the body of the dominated target - to enable an Arcana check to try and read the password from the mind of a guard.)

5e has a very different approach to PC build, which is focused much more on capabilities expressed in mechanical terms that are interpreted as literal ("naturalistic", "simulationist") within the gameworld. There is no uniform suite of abilities with clear keywords that provide a player resource economy adaptable to a range of contexts outside of combat as well as in it.

D&D can be descriptor based on the roleplaying side. The champion fighter can describe themselves as a knight, archer, swashbuckler, and the like. All with largely the same mechanics. And the bold, arrogant Robin Hood archer is a very different charcater from the cautious, sniper archer.
The mechanics of D&D don’t remove the descriptive choice based aspects of characters. They don’t remove that. It adds overtop.
The heart of the resolution rule in a descriptor-based game is: if your desctiptor bears on your declared action, that factors into the mechanical resolution. For instance, in the game I referenced - Cthulhu Dark - if the declared action falls within the scope of expertise of the PC's occupation (in my example, being a reporter, a secretary in a law firm, or a longshoreman) then a die is added to the pool.

In 5e, a player might describe his/her character as a knight but, as you say, that won't change the mechanics (unless it is done via background choice - but background in 5e seems to be rather light touch in comparison to the overall play of the game).

And yet, without getting to various normative views about editions*, 4e was (from a sales perspective) a disappointment
My own view is that there are two reasons for this.

(1) "The market" - however exactly we want to think of that - is not super-keen on a game that is mechanically very intensive on the PC build side, and in combat resolution.

(2) "The market" prefers GM-driven story - where the main contribution to story and narrative is description that is largely indepedent of and floats above the details of mechanical resolution, and is provided mostly by the GM but is supplemented by players' characterisation of their PCs - to more "indie"-style story which is determined by the outcomes of tight conflict-resolution mechanics.

2nd ed AD&D (pre-Players' Options) satisfied (1) and (2). So does 5e, and it really is like a super-tightened-up version of 2nd ed AD&D: the bulk of the mechanics deal with combat, but with attention to balance between PC builds that draws on all that was learned in 3E and especially 4e design; the out-of-combat resolution is a form of ability checks whose concrete signficance to the unfolding of the shared fiction is filtered almost entirely through GM decision-making.
 

pemerton

Legend
If there are not a million different mechanics for Barbarian builds then perhaps the difference becomes who the this particular Barbarian is instead of what it can do differently.
In the mid-90s Chris Kubasik wrote this in his Interactive Toolkit:

Characters drive the narrative of all stories. However, many people mistake character for characterization.

Characterization is the look of a character, the description of his voice, the quirks of habit. Characterization creates the concrete detail of a character through the use of sensory detail and exposition. By “seeing” how a character looks, how he picks up his wine glass, by knowing he has a love of fine tobacco, the character becomes concrete to our imagination, even while remaining nothing more than black ink upon a white page.

But a person thus described is not a character. A character must do.

Character is action.​

I'm with Kubasik. I don't see the contrast between who and what. You know who a barbarian is because you know what s/he does.

since this shift I have noticed my play experience being more about interactions between players and game world and less about tactical combat.
This seems a different complaint, though. If the sort of interaction between players and gameworld you want is not talking about combat, then it makes sense to play a game which focuses elsewhere. For example, one barbarian might have mechanics that support his/her leadership, another that support his/her wilderness survival.

Many RPGs have mechanics that focus mostly on combat, but that's an oddity of their descent from wargames, not a general feature of RPGs or of mechanics.
 

Oofta

Legend
Check out the new Ferrari Monza. 40's/50's, not 30's, but damn is it gorgeous.

Back on topic, I'll admit I'm perplexed by all this talk about "replayability". I still haven't played all the classes, and honestly I could happily re-play some of my favorite classes over and over again, with each one having a new personality. I can play two fighters in a row and have them feel like totally different characters. What I really care about, though, is the adventures. As long as the adventures are new and interesting I don't really care much what class I'm playing. In fact, sometimes I like a character so much that I think about starting the exact same character over at level 1, so that I can have more adventures with him/her.

Then again, I only play one night a week. Maybe some of the people complaining about sparse options are playing multiple nights a week?

I could imagine that there is a tiny minority of people...who play multiple nights a week and are active forum posters...who feel they have already exhausted all the options. I could also imagine that WotC isn't really going to design around that market.

I get the impression that for some people if anyone plays a type of character in a group, playing the same type of character would be "replaying". But other than that, I agree. There are so many options to what even a basic fighter could be given different backgrounds and builds.

Or even if it's the same build, it could be a completely different character. Maybe there's another explanation for people that have an issue with replayability someone could explain?
 

VengerSatanis

High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
"Adding more mechanical complexity wouldn't actually make a better game; it would just allow you to distract yourself for a bit longer before realizing you're just playing the same character, over and over, in a glorified board game."

Oh snap!
 

pemerton

Legend
GM decision-making can be a perfectly fine method of resolution. All it needs to work well is a good GM...which, it seems, not everyone has access to.
No edition of D&D ever - includinge 5e - has used the following method for resolving combat:

The player says how their PC is going to defeat their opponent in combat. The GM then tells them whether they win, whether they lose, or if a an ability check is required. If the lattermost, the GM specifies which ability is required, and what proficiencie(s), if any, might apply. The GM also sets a DC. If the check equals or exceeds the DC, the PC wins the fight. Otherwise s/he loses, with consequences determined by the GM.​

And I think an attempt to publish a version of D&D that had such a rule would not be regarded as "perfectly fine" by most D&D players.

The fact that non-combat resolution is handled more-or-less like that in both 2nd ed AD&D and 5e tells us something about how the game is expected to work: players can use the combat rules to impose changes on the gameworld that don't need to be mediate through GM decision-making (unless the GM outright fudges); but the same is not true for non-combat action declarations.
 

pemerton

Legend
The reality that there are players who consider this a bad thing is baffling to me.
Some people like sudokus; others don't. Some people prefer to play bridge rather than five hundred; other the opposite. I suspect that most people posting in this thread would not enjoy Cthulhu Dark, although it has much quicker PC building than 5e - all you have to do is decide your PC's name and job.
 

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