So I'm working on a fantasy heartbreaker, and I'm trying to figure out how I can mechanically differentiate Bows from slings (Crossbows are pretty easy, just make it so that you can only fire every other turn). I don't have any sort of weapon proficiency system, so I can't make it simpler to use. I was thinking of maybe restricting the bow to moving OR firing and allowing the sling to move and fire, making the sling more of a skirmishers weapon, but I don't know how realistic that would be. I was also considering making slings armor piercing than bows ( my setting is more classical than medieval, so I don't think that bows should have as much prominence) So how would you guys differentiate bows from slings?
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Mechanically Differentiating Bows, Crossbows and Slings
- Thread starter ydirbut
- Start date
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
For bows vs crossbows my favorite comes from a "Discussion on bows" posted by [MENTION=46684]Tinker[/MENTION] back in 2005ish. Basically these weapons have strength ratings. With a bow, you deal damage based on your own strength or the bows, whichever is lower. For crossbows the damage is always based on the weapon, but higher strength weapons take longer to reload.
With regards to slings, they tend not to be highly featured in settings where bows exist simply because they are not as effective. They do have the advantages of being cheap {to the point of free usually}, ready resupply of ammunition, and readily hidden {hey copper, its just a scarf!}.
If I were to add anything, I might add the ability to move one square {5'} as part of the attack to represent the use of full body movement in the release.
But more than likely I would leave it as is, relegating the sling to the poor and downtrodden.
Oh.. since its been years since I had someone use these, I did have a house rule that slingstones could be specially prepared to deliver touch attack spells... mainly for a players character concept. Not a very overpowered ruling even in 2e!
With regards to slings, they tend not to be highly featured in settings where bows exist simply because they are not as effective. They do have the advantages of being cheap {to the point of free usually}, ready resupply of ammunition, and readily hidden {hey copper, its just a scarf!}.
If I were to add anything, I might add the ability to move one square {5'} as part of the attack to represent the use of full body movement in the release.
But more than likely I would leave it as is, relegating the sling to the poor and downtrodden.
Oh.. since its been years since I had someone use these, I did have a house rule that slingstones could be specially prepared to deliver touch attack spells... mainly for a players character concept. Not a very overpowered ruling even in 2e!
Fifth Element
Legend
Depending on how detailed/tactical your system is, you could consider the archer's advantage over the crossbowman in, you know, archery. That is, arcing their shot. Bows can overcome a certain amount of cover, because you can arc the shot over the cover, whereas crossbows are designed for direct fire. If you're looking for some differentiation other than rate of fire.
The following random ideas are for 3.5/PF if you want to spice up those weapons with a bit of complexity for fun:
Slings could receive a bonus to hit and damage from both Dex and Str if taking a full action to make a single attack. You swing a few extra times to gather maximum impact. You could also allow firing a sling while during a charge with an extra +2 to damage. A third idea would be to allow a sling attack as an area attack - 10' radius burst centered on target with 1d4 damage (no bonuses) by loading several smaller stones.
Bows chould allow a player to make an extra attack if taking a -2 to hit (even if taking only the single attack action). Bows are fast to shoot if you are willing to sacrifice some accuracy.
Crossbows should not allow multiple attacks per round (unless repeating), but consider giving them a built-in bonus to damage and allow half damage if a missed shot would have succeeded as a ranged touch attack (the weapon is very good at piercing armor due to high impact velocity and bolt shape). Heavier crossbows can't be reloaded on the move, so maybe give them a good damage boost over the book. Slow but powerful - a good defense weapon.
Slings could receive a bonus to hit and damage from both Dex and Str if taking a full action to make a single attack. You swing a few extra times to gather maximum impact. You could also allow firing a sling while during a charge with an extra +2 to damage. A third idea would be to allow a sling attack as an area attack - 10' radius burst centered on target with 1d4 damage (no bonuses) by loading several smaller stones.
Bows chould allow a player to make an extra attack if taking a -2 to hit (even if taking only the single attack action). Bows are fast to shoot if you are willing to sacrifice some accuracy.
Crossbows should not allow multiple attacks per round (unless repeating), but consider giving them a built-in bonus to damage and allow half damage if a missed shot would have succeeded as a ranged touch attack (the weapon is very good at piercing armor due to high impact velocity and bolt shape). Heavier crossbows can't be reloaded on the move, so maybe give them a good damage boost over the book. Slow but powerful - a good defense weapon.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I presume you meant to type 'emulate' there...
This made me curious so I did some light googling and have learned new things!
Chris Harrison has a nice posting about sling use and he points out some key differences.
- bows are simpler to use but harder to make
- slings take years of training/practice to be effective
Also, most sling bullets are about the same mass as arrows, however this could be changed.
With that being said, I am liking [MENTION=6690749]Thalain[/MENTION]'s idea of applying STR and DEX mods, but have that as a perk of a feat 'SlingMaster' {or some name much cooler}
Then, provide stats for 'Heavy' bullets that require full-round action to fire but deal damage one dice set higher... and the 'grapeshot' idea too..
Basically make the sling the most versatile and more reliable damage-dealer
delericho
Legend
The way it works in D&D 3e is reasonably good:
Sling: Simple weapon, 1d4+Str damage, decent range, x2 crit. Slow reload - move action. Also, the sling has easy-to-find ammo - in general you should be able to scavenge up suitable stones.
Light Crossbow: Simple weapon, 1d8 (no Str) damage, better range, 19-20 crit. Slow reload - move action. And the crossbow needs specialised ammo - you can only replenish while in civilised parts*.
Heavy Crossbow: As the light crossbow, but 1d10 damage and an even slower reload.
Shortbow: Martial weapon, 1d6 damage (no Str by default), better range, x3 crit. Fast reload. And the bow requires specialised ammo - you can only replenish while in civilised parts*.
Longbow: As shortbow, but 1d8 damage and slightly better range.
* Okay, a skilled character may be able to build his own. But that takes significant time, which the sling doesn't require.
If you don't have any sort of weapon proficiency system, I would advocate dropping the damage dice of the bows by a step - shortbows to 1d6 (no Str) and longbows to 1d8. If you don't have any sort of improved criticals (whether 19-20 ranges, x3 multipliers, or extra dice on a crit), then I would suggest increasing sling damage to 1d6+Str. And if you allow all missile weapons to add Dex to damage (as I do in my own game... incidentally, the same will apply if you allow them all to add Str, or similar), then I would suggest dropping the slow reload for the sling.
(And let's face it - tracking ammo is a pain. Better to drop that if we can...)
Putting all those options together, I would suggest:
Sling: 1d6+Dex damage, decent range.
Light crossbow: 1d8+Dex damage, better range, slow reload.
Heavy crossbow: As light crossbow, but 1d10 damage and slower reload.
Shortbow: 1d4+Dex damage, better range.
Longbow: As shortbow, but 1d6 damage.
That would seem to give reasonable differentiation - the crossbows are best for pure damage, but they're slow, the bow trades raw damage for range, while the sling is the good middle-of-the-road candidate.
That help any?
I think you have to choose whether you're trying to provide a tactical option or recreate a specific period of history.
I say that because the development of weapons has been, well, an arms race
It means weapons become redundant - superceded by better weapons. Modern infantry are not armed with slings because semi-automatic rifles are simply better.Yes, I think this is key. The use of weapons historically is about logistics (on an army scale).
The key reason the crossbow came to prominence is because a soldier could become proficient in a week or two, rather than the years of training required for the English longbow or sling.
Crossbows were rendered obsolete once black powder weapons attained a certain level of reliability and accuracy.
So it's not that a sling couldn't be the equal of a given type of crossbow - far longer range, more portable, cheaper, readily available ammo, less accuracy, less armour piercing ability.
But in an rpg with 'historical' or 'plausible' training and proficiency mechanics, slingers would be able to do almost nothing else on the battlefield while a crossbowman would have plenty of time to also train with sword or spear. The crossbow is simply better.
Production methods and costs, technological know how, material availability, ammunition availability, military culture, the fighting styles of long-standing enemies, the years of training required - these are all things which determine historical weapon use.
The bottom line is RPGs tend to offer false choices. In AD&D I think you could choose sling stones (1d4 dmg) or bullets (1d6 dmg). Maybe it was Runequest. The question is, why on earth choose stones?
Historically there's a ton of economic reasons. Take those reasons away and there's simply a clearly optimal solution. Sling stones are not an interesting choice, they are simply inferior.
So my point is that either the mechanics are used to balance weapons tactically or they model weapons historically, but I don't think they can do both.
Aberzanzorax
Hero
You could go:
Sling: str to hit and dam
Bow: dex to hit, str to dam
Xbow: dex to hit and dam
Sling: str to hit and dam
Bow: dex to hit, str to dam
Xbow: dex to hit and dam
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Another differentiation between slings and bows/crossbows, is that bows/crossbows are piercing damage, whereas slings are blunt force damage.
While slings definitely have a range disadvantage versus the other ranged weapons, you have to consider that even though ancient Celts wielded and were skilled with bow, especially for hunting, slings were the primary ranged weapon for war, not bows.
I had thoughts of developing a Celtic setting at one point, and considered creating a warsling, as something that fires a larger bullet than standard 'hunting slings', which is what I'd consider the standard sling of D&D/PF, and thus causing more damage than the minimal damage of existing slings.
While slings definitely have a range disadvantage versus the other ranged weapons, you have to consider that even though ancient Celts wielded and were skilled with bow, especially for hunting, slings were the primary ranged weapon for war, not bows.
I had thoughts of developing a Celtic setting at one point, and considered creating a warsling, as something that fires a larger bullet than standard 'hunting slings', which is what I'd consider the standard sling of D&D/PF, and thus causing more damage than the minimal damage of existing slings.
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