Medieval Religion and Feudalism...

[LoneWolf23]

Just bought "A Magical Medieval Society: Medieval Europe", and the chapter on Religion brought up an interesting point: The Medieval Era we know of primarily existed as a result of the Catholic Church's influence.

However, The Middle Ages was still an era where the so-called "Old Ways" still existed. Even a Christian village still had some left-over pagan belief systems, and some even kept up the worship of old deities even as they went to Church.

Meanwhile, Feudalism was in full swing, with society centered around a system where one Supreme authority, the King, held sway over a number of lesser Nobles who held authority upon the commoners.

So I got to thinking: What if an Alternate Church had decided to structure a Pantheon working on a Feudal model?

Such a Divine Kingdom would be ruled by the Supreme Creator, who is served by a number of divine Vassals, lesser deities of varied levels of Power with different "demenes" of influence: a god of Fire, a goddess of the Earth, a god of Warriors, etc. Just like mortal Lords ruled over an area of land, the deities would rule over an Element or a Concept, collecting the worshippers' offered belief and tithing it to the Supreme Creator, as well as aiding him battle entities such as Fiends and rogue, "fallen" deities.

Like mortal lords, the deities would hold sway over lesser deities with smaller portfolios (thus, the god of Fire would be served by the goddess of the hearth and the god of forges). They would tithe their belief to their direct superior, who would also expect their aid in battling both the Fiends and rival deities. Local minor gods (such as the forest god of this village or the river god of that town) would be made to sweat fealty to the appropriate higher deity and the supreme deity.

Of course, the Supreme Creator's Divine Authority would be absolute and above all others, and all other deities would be expected to fall in line and serve the Supreme Creator, or else be destroyed and replaced. Any defiance to the established order would be condemned as Heresy and Church Inquisitors (the religious equivalent of Royal Agents) would be sent to deal with the issue.

I'm going to be using this in my up-coming new campaign... Any comments?

 

[JayOmega]

Sounds cool.

Couple questions:

What is the good/evil split amongst the gods going to be like? The "default" pantheons seem to assume a Good creator, and an Evil destroyer. Will you have two such kingdoms, or will all gods answer to the Good creator, or will the Creator be True Neutral? Or something else? No evil gods, just demons/devils and their worshippers?

Also, feudal vassalhoods depended on taxes; each lower rank owing some amount of coin, goods, or services to the rank above. What is the "coin of the realm" for the gods? Souls? If so, how does the god of the Dead work in? Will the Blood War between devils/demons have a significant effect?

 

[Jeremy757]

I could see how something like this could apply to the cleric class. A first level cleric would have to take a minor god as his patron and work his way up the chain to worship the major god.
For example, a cleric of the Earth, at first level takes the god of woodland animals as his patron. At sixth level the cleric of the Earth has shown is devotedness and so can now graduate to a superior god. He takes the god of groves and forests. Then finally at 12 level he is invited to join the ranks of the clerics of the Earth Mother, the goddess who is the superior to the god of woodland animals and the god of groves and forests.

 

[LoneWolf23]

What is the good/evil split amongst the gods going to be like? The "default" pantheons seem to assume a Good creator, and an Evil destroyer. Will you have two such kingdoms, or will all gods answer to the Good creator, or will the Creator be True Neutral? Or something else? No evil gods, just demons/devils and their worshippers?

Haven't worked out those details yet. I'm thinking of having variant churches in different kingdoms, with at least one being a corrupt Lawful Evil variation holding power and persecuting all heretics (or just anyone who challenges the power-hungry clergy).

The Supreme Creator Himself could possibly be True Neutral, leaving mortal churches to interprete the "Submission to the One God" deal according to their traditions/desires. One nation may have decentralized, Chaotic Neutral organisation while another may be Neutral Good, depending on how they interprete the religion's canon.

Also, feudal vassalhoods depended on taxes; each lower rank owing some amount of coin, goods, or services to the rank above. What is the "coin of the realm" for the gods? Souls? If so, how does the god of the Dead work in? Will the Blood War between devils/demons have a significant effect?

Those are more of those "details I haven't worked out yet". Sacrifices and Worship Rites would probably be the divine equivalent of taxation. Just as the mortals perform worship on the lesser deities, so to must the deities worship the Supreme Creator. Churches/temples would be focused on the Supreme Creator first, the founding order's Patron God second and the local deities next.

The realms of the dead would be operated by another lesser deity. He would be a clerical type who, with the aid of a deity of judgement, would send souls to Heaven or cast them into Hell.

There would be less of an emphasis on a Blood War between Demons and Devils, and more on a war between the Deities and the Fiends who seek to usurp creation from them and from mortal-kind. They would still be an incredibly fractious lot, just as likely to plot and wage war with one another then with the gods. It's basically one of the "Evil Plane Variants" from Book of Vile Darkness p 124: the words demon and devil would be synonyms, with Clan names such as Tanar'ri, Ba'atezu, Yugoloth and other terms holding more value for fiend identification.

 

[tetsujin28]

Interesting variants could be had if the Catholic church had not become dominant, or if there hadn't been as virulent a persecution of the Cathars.

 

[rbingham2000]

Just came over from RPG.net where a mirror of this thread is in the Open forum. Someone on the thread (second poster, in fact) pointed out the fact that the saints of the medieval church were, in essence, "vassal gods," and then went on to call the various named demons in Christian theology "fallen gods."

This struck me as incredibly cool.

The vassal gods would be various heroes (warriors, sorcerers, masters of various crafts, etc.) who ascended to godhood and swore fealty to the "lord god," while the fallen gods would be those vassal gods who rebelled against or fell out of favor with the "lord god" and were cast down into the underworld.

The vassals of the vassal gods would be the angels, while the angel vassals of the fallen gods would become demons upon being cast down into the underworld with their masters.

I also pointed out that the vassal gods would not get along with each other all the time in heaven, since they still retain some of their mortal essence, something that would be even more true for the fallen gods in the underworld.

 

[apocalypstick]

Wow. This is hella-cool. Just when you think you're satisfied with the Greyhawk deities...

Punk.

 

[andrew]

Do not try and bend the meaning of fuedalism. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth:


There is no fuedalism.

 

[Wombat]

Do not try and bend the meaning of fuedalism. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth:


There is no fuedalism.

This is one of those difficult arguments that I have seen many times.

In essence, there never was feudalism because nobody referred to it as such and because there are so many variations, so the term should be thrown out as meaningless.

At that reductionist point, we should throw out the term "democracy" as well because no two countries practice it in the same manner. Equally there is no democracy in this world that matches the core concept as dreamed up by philosphers.

In the end, feudalism is a useful model and, like democracy, it should be recognized as such.

Do you have another term you'd like to use instead to describe the general form of land-for-service governance found in most medieval realms?

 

[DonAdam]

If you want a good model for where evil gods fit into a good pantheon, nothing beats the Book of the Righteous.

It has, by far, the most plausible idea of what evil churches would look like in a D&D world.