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Melee characters and Primary Attack Stats

Alabast

First Post
Of the eight classes in the PHB 1, six of them have attack powers that make regular use of melee weapons (Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord). All except the rogue use STR at their primary stat for making melee attacks (Though the paladin, strangely, has some weapon attacks that use Charisma, and the distinction seems to be arbitrary). Since the rogue uses light weapons primarily, this makes sense, and consistency is established. Huzzah.

Since the release of the PHB, however, a number of new classes have come along that use melee weapon attacks, as well, namely Swordmage, Avenger, Barbarian, Bard and Warden. The Warden and Barbarian use STR to attack, like the others. The bard, swordmage, and avenger, however, use mental stats as their primary attack stat. I have no problem with this, since these classes are non-martial, except that they (the avenger in particular) seems inconsistent with the previous design philosophy.

I can easily imagine that an Avenger's wisdom score represents how we he channels his god's wrath, and thus affects his ability to strike his enemies. But how come a cleric, also a divine servant, needs to rely on his plain ol' physical strength to wallop enemies? Why not have all of the cleric's attacks use Wisdom, with STR helping out for little perk bonuses for melee attacks, as other classes do? Additionally, why are Paladins the only class that uses two different stats for melee attacks? Doesn't this automatically either a) diminish their ability scores by forcing a near-even split between two important stats or b) drastically reduce their choices for effective powers?

Does this seem like something that was intended from the start? Or was it a deliberate shift in game design philosophy to have every non-martial melee class have an primary attack stat be mental to reduce the importance of Strength and Dex that proliferated previous editions of D&D?
 

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Lord Ernie

First Post
As I have seen it, it's a shift in design philosophy. Instead of having a class with two main attributes, and one secondary like the Cleric (Strength & Wisdom main, Charisma secondary) and the Paladin (Strength & Charisma Main, Wisdom secondary), classes in the PHB2 seem to be designed around the other principle, with one main attack stat, and a secondary stat for each build.

Considering Paladins and Clerics suffer from a sometimes unhealthy dose of MAD (less so with melee training for the paladins, at least), I see this as going in the right direction. I'm also debating reshaping the Paladin and Cleric classes so they fit the mold (and are less MAD), into making the Paladin into a Cha main, Wis/Str secondary, and the Cleric a Wis main, Str/Cha secondary class. That would require adjusting their powers, though, and since I am an on- and off player in my own campaign and I play the only cleric (with no paladins), I'm not entirely sure it's worth it.
 

Alabast

First Post
Curiously, the cleric and the paladin are, to my reckoning, the only classes that don't require a decision at creation as to which "style" they want (1H/2H, Artful/Brutal, etc). I wonder if there is a correlation there.

By the way, what the hell is MAD? I see people on the board using it all the time, and, while I can guess what it means, I don't know what they stand for!
 

UltimaGabe

First Post
By the way, what the hell is MAD? I see people on the board using it all the time, and, while I can guess what it means, I don't know what they stand for!

I'm fairly certain it stands for Multiple Ability Dependance. Yes, I also hate when a community suddenly adopts one or several acronyms. It's incredibly annoying for anyone who didn't happen to be there the day they were adopted.
 

Tuft

First Post
Curiously, the cleric and the paladin are, to my reckoning, the only classes that don't require a decision at creation as to which "style" they want (1H/2H, Artful/Brutal, etc). I wonder if there is a correlation there.

By the way, what the hell is MAD? I see people on the board using it all the time, and, while I can guess what it means, I don't know what they stand for!

MAD = Multi Attribute Dependency
SAD = Single Attribute Dependency
 

Lord Ernie

First Post
MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency. All 4E classes have it a little, but due to the design of their power selection and attack attributes, clerics and paladins have it in unhealthy doses. (BTW, this one, and NAD's for Non AC Defenses makes me suspect D&D players like their acronyms punny)
 

robotsinmyhead

First Post
Clerics and Paladins suffer from the "2-choice Design" like most other classes. The difference between a "Laser Cleric" (all WIS-based ranged attacks) and the STR-based cleric is evident.

The Paladin has 2 builds as well: The "Charismadin" and and a STR-based.

Trying to mix the 2 builds for either class leads to a lot of MAD.
 

Obryn

Hero
There was a house rule thread about this in the past few days.

I definitely see an evolving class design philosophy, moving away from V-shaped classes (with 2 attack stats and 1 secondary) and towards A-shaped classes (with 1 attack stat and 2 secondaries for different builds.)

Clerics are, basically, two classes that share common class features. Ditto, Paladins and Warlocks. (Rangers are fine, since the power's attack stat varies based on the weapon being used.) I think it's best to look at Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks as half-classes; that is, you can usually just concentrate on one half of the powers and ignore the other half. You have less options as a result, but except for the Strength Paladin when it hits 9, they're both playable.

In theory, V-shaped classes could open up very interesting character choices, with the right race. In practice, though, I don't think they do - attack bonuses are too precious, and ability score points are too few. Like every D&D (and most every RPG) to date, the system favors specialization.

In the end, I asked myself if house-ruling V-shaped classes was worth making the Character Builder useless for those classes. I decided it wasn't; the classes are still completley playable, and neither Clerics nor Paladins are inherently screwed. They just have a little less power choice than other classes.

-O
 

Skallgrim

First Post
There was a house rule thread about this in the past few days.

I definitely see an evolving class design philosophy, moving away from V-shaped classes (with 2 attack stats and 1 secondary) and towards A-shaped classes (with 1 attack stat and 2 secondaries for different builds.)


-O

I'm hoping you are right on this, as it is one of the things I like most about fighters. STR is going to be your attack stat, period, but you can build viable fighters by focusing on Wisdom, or Dex, or CON, as a secondary. This, to me, works very well to keep each class focused on its core role and imagery, but allows players to open up a great deal of variety within the class. A Shifter fighter focusing on Wisdom and Pit Fighter plays, looks, and feels, much different than a Tempest Eladrin with Light Blades, or a dwarven battlerager focusing on CON.

If anything, I'm hoping that the attack stat moves almost entire to a single one per class, and they open more options for secondary stats in each class.
 


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