Melee Training - Good or Bad?

[Umbran]

You're already describing 4e.
What's that saying?
4e classes are the same crap, different flavour.

If you have so much problem with 4e that you feel the need to spit out nonconstructive negativity like that, perhaps you should post somewhere other than in a section of the forums dedicated to 4e.

Which is to say, folks, please don't threadcrap. Thank you.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

While this feat may not seem broken, on the surface, it does alter game balance among classes and builds. If you look at the PH classes, for instance, there are a number that tend towards high STR (primary, or relatively high-priority secondary) - Fighters, Warlords, avenging Paladins, battle Clerics, brutal Rogues - those classes had better melee basic attacks than other classes that had less (or no) reason to invest much in STR - like Warlocks, Wizards, artful Rogues, and devoted Clerics. Now, either lacking a viable melee basic attack was taken into account when those classes and builds were balanced, and the feat breaks that balance, or the classes were imbalanced to begin with, and were just now fixed. Considering the power selection of the avenging Paladin (there's a dearth of STR powers for it to choose), and the relative merits of some brutal vs artful Rogue powers (sly flourish vs riposte strike, for instance), I'd have guessed that having or lacking an MBA /was/ considered when classes - and, especially, builds - were balanced with eachother.

Warlocks should be particularly pleased, though: they can finally stab people effectively with those pact blades they've been carrying around.

While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think it is a huge problem. Strikers don't generally rely to a huge degree on OAs for their effectiveness and it is mostly certain strikers that will benefit from this. It won't change warlocks much, they're still going to avoid toe-to-toe with the enemy, it just isn't their shtick. Same with most Artful Dodger builds, they are usually range attack based. Bow Rangers, meh, they'll still want to keep away from the enemy too. Etc. It will probably help staff wizards the most to be honest. They can be pretty tough in melee and now they can get an effective OA as well. It will make an Artful Dodger based melee weapon charger build a lot more viable as well. But these builds all have tradeoffs that I think balance out their benefits. Basically a few currently suboptimal builds now become on a par with the existing builds while not really pumping much extra into the existing builds.

My observation is that in the game I run the fighter does about 75% of the OA. The str cleric does most of the rest, and the Brutal Scoundrel rogue is the only other one that regularly takes an OA. None of them would ever take this feat. The starlock might benefit from it, but he's made maybe 2 OAs in the last 4 levels of play, so I doubt it will be high on his list. And the last thing the orbizard is going to be doing is trying for an OA...

 

[CapnZapp]

It applies only to melee basic attacks.

If it applied to all attacks, it would definitely be broken. Or maybe it should, to help reduce MAD.

This says everything there is to say.

 

[Keenath]

How is it more logical that the character that uses Intelligence or Charisma or Dexterity for every other melee attack is suddenly incapable of hitting someone because they are charging or making an OA. A paladin is channeling divine power, a swordmage is channeling arcane power, and a rogue has weapon finesse [which does extra damage as well]. Is that really that illogical?

Right, exactly! Don't think of Melee Training as "I'm going to hit you hard with my brain". Think of it as "I spend every day of my life learning how to fight effectively using this skill set over here, and now I'm learning how to apply it to melee weapon combat."

A Wizard doesn't hit hard because he's smart; he hits hard because he's learned how to channel arcane power into a weapon and let the magic guide and power his weapon. A Paladin doesn't hit hard because he's so pretty (or rather, so inspiring, since charisma has nothing to do with physical appearance), but because he's spent training time on learning to channel the holy power that guides his smites into sudden, short attacks. A Rogue doesn't hit hard because he's accurate, he hits hard because he's training his ability to aim precise hits with only an instant to look for an opening.

(Remember, a melee basic is a quick attack that can be used with no windup. That's why they're what you use for OAs and charging, unless you take specific powers that are suited to those uses, or feats that represent specifically training for it.)

 

[Fundin Strongarm]

Thanks for the replies. You've convinced me it is not broken. I'm not convinced it doesn't find it's way onto most character sheets at some point though.

My LFR ranged Cleric sees enough melee action that when I saw this feat I thought "no-brainer". I will probably even swap out some of my Close Burst powers as I mainly took them so I could do something effective when based by an enemy. Now I needn't worry so much. The drawbacks for being ranged aren't there.

It's not just about OAs or granted MBAs. I think it's a great feat for any ranged character, as well as those non-STR melee characters others have mentioned. Will it be as ubiquitous as Expertise? No, I suppose not, but partly because STR based characters don't need it.

Question: Which non-STR based characters wouldn't be made better with Melee Training? Just wondering. (I'm guessing maybe archer Rangers can probably get by without it -- anything else?? Druid melee builds don't need it either but only because the feat is basically a class feature.)

 

[Victim]

Thanks for the replies. You've convinced me it is not broken. I'm not convinced it doesn't find it's way onto most character sheets at some point though.

My LFR ranged Cleric sees enough melee action that when I saw this feat I thought "no-brainer". I will probably even swap out some of my Close Burst powers as I mainly took them so I could do something effective when based by an enemy. Now I needn't worry so much. The drawbacks for being ranged aren't there.

It's not just about OAs or granted MBAs. I think it's a great feat for any ranged character, as well as those non-STR melee characters others have mentioned. Will it be as ubiquitous as Expertise? No, I suppose not, but partly because STR based characters don't need it.

Question: Which non-STR based characters wouldn't be made better with Melee Training? Just wondering. (I'm guessing maybe archer Rangers can probably get by without it -- anything else?? Druid melee builds don't need it either but only because the feat is basically a class feature.)

I generally see Shifting, the occasional Close power, defensive utilities, and marking/other punishment effects as being sufficient to get ranged characters through the occasional melee. So a feat that helps in rare circumstances seems much less useful than something that helps more often.

It's a great feat for CHA pallies, since their previously laughable OAs hamstrung them as defenders. It's alright with someone who grants basic attacks around.

But most characters should have better things to do. Most of the time, I'd put things like Skill Training or Multiclassing ahead of Melee Training, much less general offensive and defensive feats, and the good class/race feats.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Melee training, for some (like a wizard, warlock, wisdom based cleric, etc) is the equivalent of the heavy thrown weapon for strength based melee classes. It's the option you use in corner cases, in this case when the normally ranged person is cornered. Having that one option for a non provoking attack is helpful. The addition of the warlord helping/OA giving is nice as well.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Question: Which non-STR based characters wouldn't be made better with Melee Training? Just wondering. (I'm guessing maybe archer Rangers can probably get by without it -- anything else?? Druid melee builds don't need it either but only because the feat is basically a class feature.)

It really just depends on the party makeup. My party doesn't have a Warlord, so there's no granted attacks. We have a Fighter (me), a Melee Cleric and a Rogue as the melee fighters. The Rogue probably won't take it simply because he's never had to attempt an OA since he rolled him (we're level 3), and he's already locked up on feats up until the Paragon tier (he's MCing Sorcerer).

As for the back row, we have an Archer Ranger that's probably going to change to Barb, so he doesn't need it. The Laser Cleric is probably going to change to a Shaman, who won't really need it either because the Spirit will be doing most of the fighting. If she ends drawing some OA's occassionally she might pick it up, but I highly doubt she's interested in it.

Probably the only person in our group that will take is the Wizard. He's got some feats to spare, and in one of earlier combats there was a door that opened up letting out 7 minions. They all rushed right at the Wizard and surrounded him, thus granting him like 4 or 5 OA's, all of which he missed. He was actually really hoping to hit at least one because he felt that it would funny for the Wizard to start knocking heads with his big staff...now he can do that.

So out of 6 people, only one is going to take it because of how our party is made up. I imagine that there might be other parties where 4 out of the 6 people will take the feat. So I don't think it's overpowered, except perhaps in the case of the Chaladin. Even there though, it's not overpowered per se, I think it just elminated one of the few things that the Straladin had over him. Perhaps when Divine Power comes out there will be something that will make the Straladin just as good at Divine Challenge as the Chaladin, and then they'll sort of be even again.

 

[cmbarona]

This is definitely one of those examples where mechanics can help match flavor. I'll be playing an Avenger soon, and I ultimately decided to take Melee Training (Wisdom) to reflect that he has, indeed, been trained in melee. I'll worry about weapon proficiency and such later. In the meantime, I want to be able to charge around the battlefield in bloodthirsty zeal. With this feat, I can do just that.

 

[Nail]

I the games I'm playing in (or plan to run), I see this feat being taken by - at most - one PC per game.

In game #1, with a rogue, fey-lock, and lazer cleric, I's like the rogue to take it. Did I mention I play a warlord? The lazer cleric miiiiight take it, but there are better feats.

In game #2, the melee cleric might take it, and the archer ranger might take it....but I'll bet that neither do, as again, there are better feats to take, and BMAs are used so infrequently.

In game #3, the Cha-ladin will take the feat...but probably waiting until level 6, given her build already. Once again: "There are better feats to take."