Metamagic Proposal (Take Two)

[StAlda]

Please we keep this thread to whether the mechanics work or not. The last thread was my first and I see examples immediately take us off topic. This was my error - Lesson learned. This is no slam on the previous posts.

Proposal - New Metamagic system

Proposed Feats removed 'cause they didn't work

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

One difficulty I can forsee is stacking of metamagic feats?

Where would you place the slots? Would your spell list go something like:

1st - 4 * silent
2nd - 4 * empowered
3rd - 4 * maximise
4th - 4 * quickened
5th+ > normal spells

Would you have to specify in advance which spells each metamagic applies to?

 

[Stalker0]

Do we need a sliding scale to cast a spell silently or still or whatever?

In some cases, yes.

I agree, that silencomg a 1st level spell gives you the same amount of benefit as silencing a 9th level one. And for silent and still your system might work just fine.

But empowering a 2nd level spell does not grant me the same amount of bang as empowering a 9th level... yet the increased cost for using the metamagic feat are the same.

Perhaps saying the spell takes up an additional slot equal to high the spell level. That's not perfect by any stretch, but at least there's some additional cost factor.

 

[the Jester]

Keep in mind that a high-level caster typically has ways to sneak his rest periods in if he needs to. The epic-level party I run for typically needs no more than an hour to recover their spells. High-level characters can build their own demiplanes, go to planes with different rates of temporal flow, etc- they're very good at finding their weak points and coming up with ways around them (at least in my experience). Heck, if you have converted many of the old 2e spells, there's a 2nd level spell from the ol' Tome of Magic that does the trick once per day.

Also, even one quickened 9th-level spell is enough to totally outshine most other high-level non-casters; for instance, a wizard who can cast both a meteor swarm and a quickened meteor swarm in the same round is pretty durn lethal.

I think the key to checking whether your system is balanced or not is too compare a character's list using the system to a character's spell list who doesn't use metamagic at all; and from my glancing at it, it seems that your system makes for a much more powerful caster at high levels.

At lower levels it seems much better, when you can only use spells up to about 3rd/4th level. Until you have the slots to burn on pumping up your higher-level spells, you come out even or worse. But once those high-level slots start coming, there's no real reason not to burn a few low-level slots to pump them.

The ability to kick out tons of spells per round is a dramatic powerup imo. That's why you can't do it anymore with haste. Even at the cost of a 4th level slot to Quicken them, I think you're underrating the value of an extra spell per round. Especially when you can quicken your highest level spells!

Another thing to consider is that you're capping the number of times per day that the characters can use their metamagic. (If you only have four 1st-level slots, you can only extend four spells.) This may or may not be desirable; that's a matter of taste.

Anyhow, I strongly caution you to keep a close eye on this system if you do use it with a high-level party. You might try making a 17th-level wizard, then pick out two spell lists (one using no metamagic, one using your system to full effect with quickened maximized empowered 9th level spells) and have him fight himself. Betcha I know who wins.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The big problem with your proposal is that it already scales the wrong way! The opportunity cost to quicken a 1st level spell is huge (a 4th level slot), while the opportunity cost to quicken a 9th level spell is minimal!

Can I offer a counter proposal?

How about using metamagic requires another slot of the same spell level... one per plus?

Thus a sorcerer could, concievably, quicken a meteor swarm by expending 5 x 9th level spell slots on it. A quickened magic missile would use up 5 x 1st level slots, an empowered fireball would use up 3 x 3rd level slots.

You wouldn't be able to throw many metamagiced spells around, but the power would become available right there from 1st level.

Cheers

 

[StAlda]

One difficulty I can forsee is stacking of metamagic feats?

Where would you place the slots? Would your spell list go something like:

1st - 4 * silent
2nd - 4 * empowered
3rd - 4 * maximise
4th - 4 * quickened
5th+ > normal spells

Would you have to specify in advance which spells each metamagic applies to?

You specify for each spell metamagicked.
Ex.
1st level Still(Fireball), Silent(Invisibility), MM, Read Magic

 

[StAlda]

The big problem with your proposal is that it already scales the wrong way! The opportunity cost to quicken a 1st level spell is huge (a 4th level slot), while the opportunity cost to quicken a 9th level spell is minimal!

Can I offer a counter proposal?

How about using metamagic requires another slot of the same spell level... one per plus?

Thus a sorcerer could, concievably, quicken a meteor swarm by expending 5 x 9th level spell slots on it. A quickened magic missile would use up 5 x 1st level slots, an empowered fireball would use up 3 x 3rd level slots.

You wouldn't be able to throw many metamagiced spells around, but the power would become available right there from 1st level.

Cheers

What if we looked at Meatmagic Feats like this:
QUICKEN places a temporal bubble around the caster allowing them 6 seconds of time in an instant of real time.
STILL phases the caster just slightly into the ethereal plane where he can move without the prime plane seeing or hindering the movement
EMPOWER allows the caster to create a stronger connection to the energy source of the spell being cast.
MAXIMIZE allows the caster to create the strongest possible connection to the energy source of the spell they are casting.

These don't scale, they are flat. I am sensitive to the concerns of overpowering at high levels, though.

 

[Beholder Bob]

I am new to this topic but a few thoughts:

1) allow the PC to use meta magic in 1 of 2 ways, your way or standard. Your way is generally more useful, but the added flexibility couldn't hurt (and bypasses the comment about limited uses - only 4 1st lv spells)

2) cap the highest level spell usable: quicken can only be applied to a spell 4 levels lower then your highest castable spell level (so you can use it on a 5th level spells at 18th). This eliminates the 2 meteor swarm obscenity

3) I always felt that meta-magic should be spontaneous. Allow a wizard to cast spontanious, but double the meta cost (2 1st level spells, for example)

 

[JimAde]

No real insight, but I like to nit-pick

In your Maximize write-up, you kept the line "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective heightened level." which seems to imply a higher-level slot. Should that line be stricken?

On to the actual topic:
Maybe you could use a different level-dependent system where the cost to use the feats goes up with the base spell. So, for example, using Quicken on a spell (which normally raises it four levels) would require you to burn an additional slot of the same level. Using Empower (which normally adds 2 levels) burns a slot two levels lower than the spell in question. Using Silent Spell burns a slot three levels lower. So you get a formula:

Slot to burn = (Spell level - 4) + metamagic levels

minimum of 1. You could make the minimum 0 if you want to be nice and let them burn cantrips.

Of course, you could burn a higher-level slot if you wanted to.

 

[StAlda]

One thing I don't like about my system is, when a character first gets 6th level spells he can IMMEDIATELY Maximize that 6th level spell. Having said that, I do think a different (from mine and the PHB) mechanic for Metamagic is needed.