Metamagicked scroll copied into spellbook question

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
I know it is possible to scribe a scroll of a spell with Metamagic attached. For example, Elemental Spell metamagic can alter a level 3 Fireball spell to make a scroll of a level 4 Iceball.

What happens when a Wizard takes this level 4 Iceball scroll, and tries to copy it into his spellbook? Does that Wizard end up copying a standard level 3 Fireball? Does he copy a level 4 Fireball that casts as if it were level 3? Does he copy a level 4 Iceball that casts as if it were level 3?

I have looked around the internet and not yet found anyone discussing this. I don't know which rules apply to this situation. I'd appreciate input!
 

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Greenfield

Adventurer
Let's consider some other metamagic effects.

Q1: What happens if the scroll is Maximized Fireball. What level is the spell in the book and what do you get?

Q2: Can the Wiz even copy the spell, if they don't have that feat?
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Q2: Can the Wiz even copy the spell, if they don't have that feat?

This avoids the Wizard from ever having to learn the metamagic - that's too good. Get two Wizards in a party, each with different metamagic and they give each other copies of the jazzed spelled. Make enough money to cover costs by selling copies as well.
 

ElectricDragon

Explorer
I think the spell copied into the spellbook would be the original spell without metamagic effects; that is, the iceball would be lost; but the mage would now have a copy of fireball in his book that he could metamagic in any way available to him when he memorizes it.
Now Sorcerers gaining a new spell by watching someone else cast an Iced-Fireball, is another question. Although sorcerers can learn about new spells (for their future spell choices) by watching someone else cast it. I still think they would get the unmodified fireball instead of the iceball. Having the right metamagic feat should somehow increase their chances of learning the spell but I have no suggestions for that.
 

Jef Gorbach

First Post
Some quick research confirms RAW although whomever writes the metamagic version down must have the prerequisite feats, the subsequent users of the scroll do not per RAW and must only make a Spellcraft(DC 15 +spell level, -2 if within their specialty school) to copy it into their spellbook, where it’s a spell of whatever level the metamagic increased it to.

Regarding your example, a wizard using Elemental Spell(+1) to change a Fireball(SL3) to do Cold damage would know the altered version as a 4th level spell they could either cast or write down.

Someone else finding the scroll could transfer it to their own spellbook with a successful Spellcraft(19) check; from which they could memorize/cast it like any other 4th level spell they know. However it will only do Cold damage unless they know Elemental Spell to rechange it.


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<source: www.d20pfsrd.com; I bolded relevant sentences>

Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
See magic item creation rules for more information.


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells:
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

Sidebox faq: At what spell level does a spell modified by a metamagic feat count for purposes of concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus’s spell recall or a pearl of power.


Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
For the record, using the feat Energy Substitution the spell level doesn't change.

I guess my view is that "spell known" would be Fireball, in this instance. Any Metamagic feats added are feats, add-ons, not actually part of the "spell known". So you'd get Fireball in your book, not Iceball.

If that wasn't the case then we'd effectively be adding new "spells known" to Sorceres and Bards. I mean if iceball and fireball are separate spells...

Consider effects like Spell Immunity: A Cleric casts Spell Immunity (PHB page 282), they get to select certain spells that can't affect them. If they select Fireball, does that mean they can be harmed by Widened Fireball? Maximized Fireball? Quickened Fireball? If not, why would Energy Substitution on Fireball be any different? It's just another metamagic effect in the end, isn't it.

Think of Metamagics like character Templates: Adding a Template like Half Fey or Lycanthrope to a Human doesn't change the fact that he/she is still Human. They still get their extra Feat, and extra Skill point per level. Otherwise, when someone gets bitten by a Werewolf they'd have to lose a Feat and a bunch of Skill points, and that would be really messed up.

Also consider the difference in the rules for Metamagic feats: When used by a Spontaneous Caster (such as Sorcerer or Bard), applying the Feat turns the spell into a Full Round casting (unless they have the Rapid Metamagic Feat).

So, would a Scroll scribed by a Sorcerer, with the Metamagic, be inherently different (slower) than the same spell scroll scribed by a Wizard, who doesn't have to add to the casting time?

To my thinking the Sorcerer has to take a full round to read that scroll, no matter who scribed it, and the Wizard could read it as a Standard Action, exactly the way they could normally cast it.
 

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