Mezoamerican gods

[Anime Kidd]

I am almost dead-certain that there is an issue of Dragon Magazine for 3rd Edition that has a short list of Mesoamerican deities and, at the very least, their basic cleric-related details (domains, portfolio, alignment). The issue included similar details in that article, on some oriental deities, egyptian deities, and I think a few others. I'm fairly sure it was the issue that had basic D&D religion-inspiration material, like some info on a few hoodoo/voodoo deities, basic historical deity archetypes (the green man, the reaper, the sun god, etc.), and other stuff (may've also been the issue with deathtouched creature templates? I dunno. Think it was an October issue though, from at least a few years ago).

I'll post again if I find the issue soon, I know it's somewhere in my room......

Dragon 283, May 2001 perhaps?

 

[Celebrim]

As Shroomy mentions above, Dragon magazine is starting up a series of Class Acts articles that detail several of these deities. And over in Dungeon, the Savage Tide Adventure Path is thick into the Isle of Dread, whose native inhabitants worshiped these deities. Tlaloc, Quetzalcoatl, Camazotz, and several others are fairly significant thematic elements of the adventures that take place on the Isle of Dread in this campaign.

Oh. Well, count me out of that adventure path then. Yuck. That totally misses out on the cool flavor of the original module. After the inhabitants experiences with false gods, you'd not think that they'd want anything to do with any gods, least of all muderous tyrants like Tlaloc.

I hope they don't try to make Tlaloc into a good guy out of misguided political correctness. Yes, the AD&D write up of the central American pantheon gets alot of facts wrong, but the overall brutality of the pantheon it gets right. If anything, it doesn't get enough into its bizarreness and bloodythirstyness. The Mayan/Toltec/Aztec gods make the Greek family of god's dysfunctionality look like 'Leave it to Beaver', and the overall religion is positively Cthullan in its cynacism.

 

[Relique du Madde]

I think THE most important Aztec goddess is Tonantzin, also known as Coatlaxopeuh (She who crushes snakes) and Coatlicue, She IS an Earth and Furtility Godess who also is linked to the moon. The reason why she's THE most important Aztec goddess is because some scholars believe that she is non other then the Virgen of Guadalupe.

 

[Arkhandus]

Ahh yes, here it is. I wasn't able to use the computer for a few hours, but...

Dragon #283, May 2001

Probably not a lot different from what Celebrim posted as his guesses based on 1E Deities & Demigods, though probably more tame/alignment-mixed than that.

THE AZTEC PANTHEON
Quetzalcoatl, God of the Air....Lawful Neutral...Air, Law, Magic, Travel...Worshippers: Nobles
Camatli, God of Fate....Neutral...Luck, Protection, Trickery...Worshippers: Fortune-seekers
Camazotz, the Bat God....Chaotic Evil...Chaos, Evil, Travel...Worshippers: Assassins
Chalchiuhtlicue, Goddess of Water and Love....Chaotic Good...Luck, Protection, Water...Worshippers: Lovers
Huhueteotl, God of Fire....Chaotic Evil...Chaos, Destruction, Fire...Worshippers: Evil clerics and wizards
Huitzilopochtli, God of War....Neutral...Destruction, Strength, War...Worshippers: Fighters
Itzamna, God of Medicine....Neutral Good...Healing, Magic, Protection...Worshippers: Physicians
Micatlantecuhtli, God of Death....Lawful Evil...Death, Evil, Law...Worshippers: Necromancers
Tezcatlipoca, God of the Sun....Chaotic Evil...Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Sun...Worshippers: Nobles
Tlaloc, God of Rain....Lawful Evil...Evil, Trickery, Water...Worshippers: All who need rain
Tlazolteotl, Goddess of Vice....Chaotic Evil...Chaos, Evil, Trickery...Worshippers: Rogues
Xochipilli, God of Luck....Neutral...Knowledge, Luck, Trickery...Worshippers: Gamblers, rogues

 

[D.Shaffer]

There are a bunch of problems with Mesoamerican gods when it comes to statting them out.

We have very spotty records on them thanks to the Spanish conquest. Many of the codexes detailing their religion and mthology were burned by the Spanish. Other accounts were written down after this period, and it's entirely likely that things were exaggerated.

The aztecs themselves were likely to subsume the gods of the people around them to fit into their mythology. New gods would be incorporated as aspects of ones they already knew, or just merged together whole sale. This led to a hodge podge of different deities, and lots of overlap and conflicting nature. Additionally, these aspects could have completely different natures.

To make things even more confusing, there's evidence that a lot of the stories attributed to the mythological beings are in fact stories of priests who took the names of those beings. Priests would often take the names of the gods, and many times sacrificer were also considered to be aspects of the gods.

Back to DND, it's been a while since I was really into Aztec mythology, but I remember the 2nd ed Deities and Demigods to be a bit closer to the 'real' versions then 1st eds. While Aztec mythology WAS rather brutal, I think 1st ed over did it with the evil alignments.

 

[Celebrim]

Ahh yes, here it is. I wasn't able to use the computer for a few hours, but...

Dragon #283, May 2001

Probably not a lot different from what Celebrim posted as his guesses based on 1E Deities & Demigods, though probably more tame/alignment-mixed than that.

Harrrump. I think I did a better job. But, its not really the original authors fault. It's just that more material has been published since 2001, and I didn't have to limit myself to core.

Still, there are a few decisions in that list that I just consider silly. Twelves dieties and four of them have the Trickery domain - and neither of the obvious trickster gods do. I admit that the meso-American pantheon is particularly difficult to divide into obvious jobs, but if I was going to have particularly common domains it would be something like intoxication, sun, water, or corn - not trickery (although I suppose this could substitute for 'madness' or 'intoxication' if you weren't going to create any new domains). Any god who was anything in mesoamerica was principally an intoxicant, sun, water, and/or corn god whatever else they moonlighted as. And apparantly they all liked human flesh alot.

Maybe I'll right something up and post to house rules this weekend.

 

[Celebrim]

There are a bunch of problems with Mesoamerican gods when it comes to statting them out.

Indeed.

We have very spotty records on them thanks to the Spanish conquest. Many of the codexes detailing their religion and mthology were burned by the Spanish. Other accounts were written down after this period, and it's entirely likely that things were exaggerated.

There is plenty of archealogical evidence on the other hand which suggests otherwise, and if the size and scope of the human sacrifices were being exagerrated then they were originally exagerrated by the Aztecs themselves.

The aztecs themselves were likely to subsume the gods of the people around them to fit into their mythology. New gods would be incorporated as aspects of ones they already knew, or just merged together whole sale.

This is certainly true. The Aztec pantheon is basically The toltec and Mayan pantheons shuffled around. For example, in the Mayan version, Itzanama and not the feathered serpant is the chief of the Gods. This is pretty common in polytheism. We could say the same thing about the Greek gods. Whats different is the level of rivalry between the gods. Each diety seems to expand out into each of the other dieties roles in a way that the greek gods didn't despite also being patrons of various city states. What is also different, is as you point out, these various deities seem to be based on conquering priest-kings from earlier ages - which if they are all based on mortal histories might explain why the pantheon is so nihilistic, tryrannical, cynical, bloodythirsty, and so forth. (And before anyone charges me with not being PC enough, let's not forget that the Greeks had only stopped human sacrifice a couple of generations before the classical period which thier literature flurished in, and that the Pheonicians deities were probably as brutal as the Meso-Americans.)

Back to DND, it's been a while since I was really into Aztec mythology, but I remember the 2nd ed Deities and Demigods to be a bit closer to the 'real' versions then 1st eds. While Aztec mythology WAS rather brutal, I think 1st ed over did it with the evil alignments.

I've never seen the 2nd edition version. But if anything, the 1st edition version softened things up alot. If I were doing a full write up, I'd try to capture the distinctly Meso-American elements (all the gods are ghosts, they all hunger for human flesh, the 'heavens' are the great black scary void of space, the only people that can enter 'heaven' are those that died a violent and painful death, people that die peacefully go to 'hell', etc.)

 

[DragonLancer]

Thanks for the help and suggestions there. Its all much appreciated.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I've never seen the 2nd edition version. But if anything, the 1st edition version softened things up alot. If I were doing a full write up, I'd try to capture the distinctly Meso-American elements (all the gods are ghosts, they all hunger for human flesh, the 'heavens' are the great black scary void of space, the only people that can enter 'heaven' are those that died a violent and painful death, people that die peacefully go to 'hell', etc.)

I think making them ghosts is a bit over doing things. Aztec mythology has a lot in common with animism. Some of the studied I've read actually believe that Aztec (And other Mesoamerican) belief systems were a mid point being traditional animism and a more 'modern' pagan belief system. As such, the Aztec gods would be closer to spirits, much like Japanese kami. They do have a overt fondness for blood, but remember that in aztec belief, they need it to continue to live. Without blood, they'd die and the universe would end. How that would integrate with multiple pantheons, I'm not sure. I'd say it was more fatalistic then cynical.

Equating Mictlan to hell is overstating things. Mictlan isnt really 'hell' in the way we think of it. There ARE brutal bits to it, but it's not meant as a means of punishment, per say. Eventually you get reincarnated out of it. It's more of a 'holding area', like the Greek afterlife. Heaven is, in many aspects, much like the norse idea of Valhalla, you need to do something worthwhile to get in. Considering both are warrior cultures, this might not be too surprising. The fallen warrior (Or sacrifice victim, or women who died in childbirth), spends most of the day relaxing (As a hummingbird/butterfly, smelling flowers), and then spends the night escorting the sun in its travel.

You also left out Tlallocan.

That said, I think Aztec society is a good example of LE. Everything is organized, they were geared for continual conquest, their religion encourages conquest, order is enforced through religious stricture and threat of sacrifice, strict caste system. It even shows how even a 'Evil' society could have good points. Those with power were held to a higher standard, with tougher punishments. Ways to advanced out of your caste into a higher one through performance in battle.

 

[Celebrim]

I think making them ghosts is a bit over doing things.

No, literally. Seriously. I'm not making this up. According to the older stories all the Aztec gods died, supposedly in an act of sacrifice to reignite the sun. This is the basis of the claim that humans must repay the favor by sacrificing thier lives.

Aztec mythology has a lot in common with animism.

All animistic religions - from African, to North American, to Siberian Shamanism, to Celtic (or what we know of it) - are basically the same. Aztec mythology is an outlier in many ways from both animism and polytheism.

Some of the studied I've read actually believe that Aztec (And other Mesoamerican) belief systems were a mid point being traditional animism and a more 'modern' pagan belief system. As such, the Aztec gods would be closer to spirits, much like Japanese kami. They do have a overt fondness for blood, but remember that in aztec belief, they need it to continue to live.

Rather, they need it to sustain thier unlife. That's why so many of them are pictured as skeletons.

Equating Mictlan to hell is overstating things. Mictlan isnt really 'hell' in the way we think of it. There ARE brutal bits to it, but it's not meant as a means of punishment, per say. Eventually you get reincarnated out of it. It's more of a 'holding area', like the Greek afterlife. Heaven is, in many aspects, much like the norse idea of Valhalla, you need to do something worthwhile to get in. Considering both are warrior cultures, this might not be too surprising. The fallen warrior (Or sacrifice victim, or women who died in childbirth), spends most of the day relaxing (As a hummingbird/butterfly, smelling flowers), and then spends the night escorting the sun in its travel.

Yes, this is all true. The afterlife corresponds more to the Greek model than what we are used to thinking about. But its rather even more strange than that. For example, the notion of a separate 'heaven' for each sort of violent death (sacrifice victim, warfare, drowning, still born, dying in childbirth, etc.) is as far as I know unique and encourages a 'live fast/die young' lifestyle in a way few other religions do.