D&D 5E Might&Magic: the linear fighter and the exponential wizard

[CapnZapp]

God knows I have my own issues with 5E so I guess it's refreshing to see a problem I don't have for once.

 

[Alexemplar]

Again, this supers comparison.

Why do people think D&D is a supers game when it's a fantasy game?

Because most people are generally familiar with the Hollywood version of most myths/fantasy tales. Or at least simpler retellings. They're very similar to super heroes.

If D&D characters were actually capable of the kinds of feats you regularly see martially inclined heroes perform in myth/fairy tales/fantasy, they'd be more powerful than most Marvel super heroes.

 

[Alexemplar]

Virtually every major player of the Round table knights were also sporting a magical blood-line.

Kind of reminds me of having an X-factor in ones genes.

Most people who do anything remotely interesting in myth and folklore have something 'not human' somewhere in their blood. There are rare exceptions when it comes to mortals, though. Beowulf, Finn McCool, and Jason (of Argonauts fame) are among a handful of perfectly mortal dudes who still kicked unrealistic amounts of arse, though.

But the same goes for pretty much all magic wielders, too. More so, actually. All the wizards, sorcerers, and other wielders of supernatural powers these heroes meet in these tales are similarly supernatural in origin; if not more likely to be out-and-out spirits/gods.

 

[Garthanos]

But the same goes for pretty much all magic wielders, too. More so, actually. All the wizards, sorcerers, and other wielders of supernatural powers these heroes meet in these tales are similarly supernatural in origin; if not more likely to be out-and-out spirits/gods.

With Circe and others transforming enemies by feeding them a poison most of the magic described was still not D&D flash big magic which is why I keep going back to early Celts. They seem a rare source of uber awesome sorcery almost like D&Ds the sorcerers among the Tuatha de Danaan might have originally been seen as mortals but that is so far gone its really hard to say and most of the sorcery of these mortals still might have been mostly what we might call rituals and we get to hear about Lugh spinning thrice in a circle to vanish or taking animal forms or similar rather immediate magic.

 

[Yaarel]

If I recall correctly, that actually had it's roots in wargaming. A unit could eventually become a hero, and then a superhero. Meaning "better than a hero", as opposed to "you are now one of the X-Men".


As to LFQW, I remember it well from 3.x, but I can't say I've noticed it in 5e (we've played up to 19th level). High level casters are undoubtedly different from non-casters, but my impression hasn't been that they are better. Just different. YMMV

5e scarcifies high level spells. Not only by requiring higher slots to boost low level spells (thus curbing the ‘quadratic’ problem) but also make high tier slots painfully few.

 

[CapnZapp]

The easiest way to balance fighters with full casters is to change short rests to a night's sleep and a long rest to many consecutive days of rest. Let normal HD recharging and exhaustion be short rest recharged. The end.

That's adjusting the balance point to fit a campaign with different pacing. Which isn't terrible, but isn't ultimately any different than just forcing tons of encounters & short rests into every 'day.'

Yes, we're still waiting for the edition that finally supports all paces a story and campaign can have, by untying rest frequency from a specific period of time.

In other words, changing "hour and day" to "day and week" (or whatever) misses the point, since it just shifts the problem.

Much like we've finally gotten rid of stupid crap like charm person, detect evil and low-level teleporting, sooner or later D&D will implement "you can make a short rest every X encounters, and a long rest every Y short rests" (aka the Jonathan Tweet solution) so the game finally supports an intense goblin dungeon bash and a months-long desert trek equally fine: even if both scenarios would feature the exact same number and CR of opponents (in order for both to be playable in a night's gaming), one is currently mind-bogglingly difficult and the other excruciatingly trivial.

No need to respond - just foretelling the future

 

[CapnZapp]

Because

Thank you but my question was rhetorical.

 

[CapnZapp]

Without a doubt, the most effective character I have played is a 5E Champion Fighter. If by "suck," you mean "be a whirlwind of death to their enemies," you'd be close to the mark. This gap is theoretical, more than practical.

As to LFQW, I remember it well from 3.x, but I can't say I've noticed it in 5e (we've played up to 19th level). High level casters are undoubtedly different from non-casters, but my impression hasn't been that they are better. Just different. YMMV

5e scarcifies high level spells. Not only by requiring higher slots to boost low level spells (thus curbing the ‘quadratic’ problem) but also make high tier slots painfully few.

Yes, this thread reads as if it was posted to the wrong edition subforum.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, we're still waiting for the edition that finally supports all paces a story and campaign can have

Not 'still waiting,' but 'once gain waiting.' We had that for a couple of years, but then it turned out that we essentially can't have nice things, afterall. ;P

, by untying rest frequency from a specific period of time.
In other words, changing "hour and day" to "day and week" (or whatever) misses the point, since it just shifts the problem.

Really, nothing about 4e & 5e short/long rests keeps the DM from just shifting the time scale (3.x was presented in a more set-in-stone style, but you could probably do so in 3.5/PF, too, your players just might rebel if it didn't favor their builds). And, yes, that's 'shifting the problem.' It is fine if you want to always run your campaign at a given pace, or if you are OK with always matching the pacing to the conditions. Desserts always have infrequent encounters, dungeons always have plenty of food, water & safe places to rest.

Much like we've finally gotten rid of stupid crap like charm person, detect evil and low-level teleporting, sooner or later D&D will implement "you can make a short rest every X encounters, and a long rest every Y short rests" (aka the Jonathan Tweet solution)

AKA 13th Age, which is D&D but for trademark law.

The idea of balancing classes with different mixes of resources, recharging at different rates, can be made to work, at a point. It's just a question of choosing that point and forcing it. 13A does so arbitrarily, which gives the DM certain freedom in pacing his campaign how he likes. Other D&D and D&D-like games do not. Un-D&D-like games have the luxury of balancing characters in ways that work regardless of pacing.

 

[TheSword]

With reduction in scrolls, purchased magic items, spell slots, concentration limitation, modified spells, meta magic etc. The gap in power is now negligible.

Spells that in previous editions could affect a whole party now only affect individuals or are limited to one at a time and so are no longer solutions like they used to be.

Throughout pathfinder Martials have been stronger than casters in combat. Many arguing for a martial / caster disparity state that fighters lack choice out of combat. However this debate ignores the fact that survival and ability to succeed in combat is far far more important than being able to instantly travel. Based on the fact that combat can equate to up to 70% of the game and instant travel equates to 0.5% of the game. (By instant travel include all the convenient but hardly essential elements that could accomplished with a portal, or friendly outsider)