D&D 5E Mike Mearls interview - states that they may be getting off of the 2 AP/year train.

[Ath-kethin]

Lol point has never been difficulty. It's just a silly, counter intuitive, system.

Do you mean the U.S. school system specifically or teaching kids to be afraid of math in general?

I guess the fact that I was attending a school created by and for math nerds when I was introduced to D&D informs my viewpoint, but I never found the system to be particularly counterintuitive. It was just adding negative numbers.

Though speaking of counterintuitive, I actually lay the blame for the lousy index in the 5e PHB squarely on the THAC0 joke in it. So that's one place where I definitely feel THAC0 caused more problems than it solved.

 

[Gradine]

Do you mean the U.S. school system specifically or teaching kids to be afraid of math in general?

I guess the fact that I was attending a school created by and for math nerds when I was introduced to D&D informs my viewpoint, but I never found the system to be particularly counterintuitive. It was just adding negative numbers.

Though speaking of counterintuitive, I actually lay the blame for the lousy index in the 5e PHB squarely on the THAC0 joke in it. So that's one place where I definitely feel THAC0 caused more problems than it solved.

Teaching kids (and some kids more than others) that math is something to be frightened of is certainly an issue (at least here in the States; can't speak for the global community). Of course, living it a society where one doesn't have much control over it, one thus has a choice on how to design a product that requires mathematics to appeal to a specific kind of audience,

Now, THAC0 is basically arithmetic, so for the math fans in the room it was certainly easy enough to grok. It is not, however, basic arithmetic. WotC-era D&D has taught us you can perform the exact same calculations as simply as adding one number to one die roll and comparing it to another number. No need for all the complications THAC0 tables and negative AC's provide.

It's a matter of accessibility. Gary, or whoever came up with THAC0, created a system that was way more complicated than it needed to be for really no good reason at all. I don't know if counter-intuitive is the right word... needlessly convoluted is how I'd describe it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I switched THAC0 around a few years into 2e. I called it THN (to-hit number, pronounced "thin") and reversed ACs so that "no armour" was AC 0. It made far more sense to my players, some of whom had a hard time with the math, for various reasons (none of which were poor schooling).

WotC took it one step further and added 10 to everything.

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[Staffan]

It's a matter of accessibility. Gary, or whoever came up with THAC0, created a system that was way more complicated than it needed to be for really no good reason at all. I don't know if counter-intuitive is the right word... needlessly convoluted is how I'd describe it.

To be fair to Gary, the original rule was that you used attack matrices to figure out whether you hit or not. Find your class's attack table, cross-reference your level with your opponent's AC, and you'll find the number you need to equal or exceed to hit. Looking at it that way, it's... well, not intuitive per se, but you can see the origin in miniature wargames. That's also why new classes or monsters for AD&D (both editions) often say things like "uses the thief attack table" or "attacks as a 7th level fighter" instead of just giving a THAC0.

THAC0 was a deconstruction of the earlier system. It missed out on some of the finer details (like the repeating 20s - above each "20" entry on the to-hit-tables there were five entries of "20*" which indicated you needed a natural 20, not a 20 including bonuses - and above that, you needed a natural 20 plus bonuses), but I don't think anyone really missed those. It was included as early as the 1e DMG in the monster reference table, but there it wasn't used as a mechanic but instead as a reference. The person most responsible for using it as the core mechanic of AD&D 2nd edition is probably Zeb Cook, who was lead designer, and I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that they were discussing reversing AC as early as then, but didn't because of backward compatibility (1e and 2e are about as compatible as 3e and Pathfinder).

 

[bmfrosty]

I understand the origins were in miniature wargames, I'm just get annoyed that at no point did they stop and decide to flip it over until they were bought out of bankruptcy.

It goes all the way back to Men & Monsters. I just wish they had fixed it for AD&D and the Basic Set. They must have known by then.

 

[Jester David]

It feels like the AC is upside down. Maybe that's why they put it right-side up for 3e.

One of my first introductions to D&D was the game Eye of the Beholder II. Which I picked-up in that small, small window when I was aware of D&D but was still too poor to get the books.

I had all my characters running around naked because it was the only way to get the best Armour Class. And I made sure the warriors all had 18/99 Strength because I didn't want to go one higher and just have plain 18 Str

 

[Thac0 the Barbarian]

Because THAC0.

Jeez, that seems unnecessary


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[doctorbadwolf]

Do you mean the U.S. school system specifically or teaching kids to be afraid of math in general?

I guess the fact that I was attending a school created by and for math nerds when I was introduced to D&D informs my viewpoint, but I never found the system to be particularly counterintuitive. It was just adding negative numbers.

Though speaking of counterintuitive, I actually lay the blame for the lousy index in the 5e PHB squarely on the THAC0 joke in it. So that's one place where I definitely feel THAC0 caused more problems than it solved.

Obviously, I refer to THAC0, not any school system.

Again, ease or difficulty is not the point. In case that isn't clear, people don't dislike THAC0 because they are "afraid of math". It is disliked because it is eye roll inducing. Adding negative numbers is fine. Any math system is fine, really, as long as 10 year olds can reasonably be expected to learn it quickly and intuitively. THAC0 is annoying to pretty much everyone I know, including my gaming buddy who is about to get his masters degree in mathematics, and is yet to decide if he wants to go further right now, or just teach for a while and see where it goes. He has no difficulty at all with the system, and can tell you the exact probabilities of any given role in much more complicated systems. THAC0 just makes him roll his eyes, and question the mathematical proficiency of the person who came up with it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Now, THAC0 is basically arithmetic, so for the math fans in the room it was certainly easy enough to grok. It is not, however, basic arithmetic. WotC-era D&D has taught us you can perform the exact same calculations as simply as adding one number to one die roll and comparing it to another number. No need for all the complications THAC0 tables and negative AC's provide.

It's a matter of accessibility. Gary, or whoever came up with THAC0, created a system that was way more complicated than it needed to be for really no good reason at all. I don't know if counter-intuitive is the right word... needlessly convoluted is how I'd describe it.

Right. This. The multi-directional math, the need to either memorize or reference tables, etc, is just needless and without any benefit. They system is fun anyway, sure, but THAC0 doesn't add anything to it.

Just the AC range is weird to the casual or new observer. Why? Why does my AC start at a positive number, and then drop as I improve it, until it's a negative number, the "minimum" and "maximum" of which aren't even nice, intuitive numbers like 5 or 10?

What about that has literally any benefit over starting at 0 and moving in a single direction with improvement? In what way is mono-directional math not strictly superior for this purpose?

In math, you use the simplest solution that gets you to the correct outcome. Needless complication is bad math.

 

[Mistwell]

Obviously, I refer to THAC0, not any school system.

Again, ease or difficulty is not the point. In case that isn't clear, people don't dislike THAC0 because they are "afraid of math". It is disliked because it is eye roll inducing. Adding negative numbers is fine. Any math system is fine, really, as long as 10 year olds can reasonably be expected to learn it quickly and intuitively. THAC0 is annoying to pretty much everyone I know, including my gaming buddy who is about to get his masters degree in mathematics, and is yet to decide if he wants to go further right now, or just teach for a while and see where it goes. He has no difficulty at all with the system, and can tell you the exact probabilities of any given role in much more complicated systems. THAC0 just makes him roll his eyes, and question the mathematical proficiency of the person who came up with it.

Why? Why does it make his eyes roll and question the mathematical proficiency of the person who came up with it?