Mike Mearls Talks (er, Tweets) About the Industry

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours.

I think there's a market for lots of different RPGs in that sense. Because each gaming group playing D&D is running its own unique game, in their own homebrew setting with their own house rules.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.

 

[Corpsetaker]

I've got no issues with 'em. I'm a PS fan from wayback, so genasi are an easy sell, I'm partial to gnomes over halflings so svirfneblin are neat, I love the idea of a flying PC so I can't wait to try out aarakocra, and goliaths scratch my "big race" itch in ways that half-orcs and dwarves never did.

Here's the problem I see.

When you happen to like all the current options available then you're right, you have a good bit to go through until you need more options. I'm not like you though. I don't like a lot of the options that came out so I want more options to come out hoping it will contain things I do like. Options shouldn't be like some sort of assembly line where I need to try options 1-5 before I can use option 6.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's not really true - Forbes and USA Today are hardly niche media, and sites with a more "Dorknet" focus such as the Escapist and Boing Boing have. Not to mention the fact that D&D video games pop up in the video games sites (there's a love for the game there) and D&D books pop up on the books sites (The NYT bestseller list can't keep Salvatore off of it!) - that's kind of one of the big strengths of "transmedia marketing" - all of these places are talking about the same thing, at the same time, and you own the biggest chunk of the news cycle that you can.

OK, wait a sec here. When, since the release of 5th, have these two publications said squat about D&D? Actually, if you search the web for major media references to D&D you find there's no news about it at all. There's almost nothing about any future anything. Maybe once every few months the term "Dungeons & Dragons" surfaces in the media, usually just a cultural reference. Very rarely someone comments on having played, or some reference to people who do play, etc. There's absolutely no hype about ANYTHING. None.

"Beyond that?" It hasn't even been a year since the game was released. If you're keeping up, you should be knee-deep in Princes of the Apolcaypse (which just came out TWO MONTHS AGO) and/or playing the Neverwinter MMO and/or the Elemental Evil board game. PotA and Elemental Evil have been chatted about on the Dorknet sites. That's not "zero," and it's quite a bit more than Heroes of the Feywild or Complete Champion got!

I don't think its more than what was visible with 4e at this stage, no. In fact it looks to me like 5e fell into the media pond, made a tiny one day ripple, and sank without a trace. Yes, of course 5e has the same visibility on the 'dorknet' that D&D has always had, but nothing more. I don't see any fruits of some masterpiece of media strategy that Mike seems to be implying. Rather the opposite, 4e was constantly talked about, its releases were talked about, there was always a great deal of chatter in the usual places, because there was always stuff to talk about.

From a media perpsecive, it looks like we're all playing PotA over here in pen-and-paper land. If PotA should take a normal table nearly a year to go through, why would things look boarded-up? We're playing the game. Our svirfneblin and our goliaths are unearthing the deception as we speak.

We weren't interested in PotA. So what WotC has for product offerings for us is literally zero. Nor is a module going to be talked about for a year, even if people are playing it for a full year (and I think a year-long module is a bit of a stretch myself).

Nor, TBH, do a lot of gew gaws and whatnot really do much for me. I mean if they want to sell some high-quality game accessories that are really useful to us in our game, we might buy them. However I don't need WotC for that and there's not going to be IMHO much hype involved.

I get what Mike is trying to say. He's basically saying they're not going to put much stuff out, so they're going to really try to maximize their meagre production by husbanding the community's attention, keep things secret and only hype them at the very end, whatever. They are going to NEED to do that if they only sell 2 limited products a year. I guess what I mean is they might as well, if ROI is all that matters, then maybe putting out only 2 adventures and nothing else at least means you don't EVER have overstock?

Personally I think this is an anti-strategy. They did their best to create a whole competitor to themselves with PF, and now they've ceded the industry to said competitor. Gosh, its almost like they WANT to kill the product.

 

[DaveMage]

Yes, of course 5e has the same visibility on the 'dorknet' that D&D has always had, but nothing more. .

I don't have anything to add, but I shall now start using "dorknet" more often.

 

[SigmaOne]

Here's the problem I see.

When you happen to like all the current options available then you're right, you have a good bit to go through until you need more options. I'm not like you though. I don't like a lot of the options that came out so I want more options to come out hoping it will contain things I do like. Options shouldn't be like some sort of assembly line where I need to try options 1-5 before I can use option 6.

So homebrew, use someone else's homebrew, find a different game. Frankly it seems like the latter is your best bet, because if what you found in the PHB left you uninterested or didn't old your interest for even 9 months, then what on earth leads you to believe their next releases will be any different? I mean, the classes in the PHB are absolutely a blast, at least many of us thinks so; really, do you think they're just holding the cool stuff back? It sounds to me like 5e might not be the game you want.
Or maybe you're right. Maybe they'll put together a PHB2 that will be all you were hoping for. I'm in the "more the merrier" camp, so I hope that's the case.

Regarding media, there can be no doubt the the D&D brand has receive far more widespread attention with their multimedia approach than they would by focusing on table-top alone. Sword Coast Legends has garnered quite a bit of attention at conferences like GDC and E3, bringing home a slew of awards. That might not matter to you, but it brings the Dungeons & Dragons name back in full force into video gaming, where it hasn't been strong for years. And that does bring new table-top players from the gaming world. Games like Lords of Waterdeep, D&D Dice Masters, and the Adventure System board games, such as Temple of Elemental Evil again keep D&D much more strongly in the gaming culture zeitgeist than it could ever be on its own; not to mention being successful money-makers on their own. D&D isn't dominating the media and it never will; there will never be a media blitz. But there is undeniably a presence, and that presence is quite strong for a 40 year old brand, thanks to the approach they're taking. They've made a solid table top game in 5e, and there's no reason they shouldn't be bringing the D&D spirit to other media for people who either don't know about or aren't interested in table top RPGs.

I'm in the camp of people who will be disappointed if there is nothing more than two mega-adventures per year; I want setting support. I too want to hear about their plan for a (hopefully) open gaming license; I want (sanctioned) community support. But the Wizards D&D team is a very small part of a very large company, undoubtedly navigating some tricky political waters within Hasbro, and I'd rather they move slowly and carefully to do 5e right, rather than rush out a bunch of options that could either sell very poorly or dilute the brand or cause Hasbro to limit their creative freedom. They designed the game with classes and subclasses to provide an elegant way to hook in new player options, so I have no doubt they will come in time. Most people who play the game, I think, have enough other things going on in their lives that they're still digesting all the awesomeness that's been released over the past year, to say nothing of the new races and spells in the PotA supplement.

 

[SigmaOne]

OK, wait a sec here. When, since the release of 5th, have these two publications said squat about D&D? Actually, if you search the web for major media references to D&D you find there's no news about it at all. There's almost nothing about any future anything. Maybe once every few months the term "Dungeons & Dragons" surfaces in the media, usually just a cultural reference. Very rarely someone comments on having played, or some reference to people who do play, etc. There's absolutely no hype about ANYTHING. None.


I don't think its more than what was visible with 4e at this stage, no. In fact it looks to me like 5e fell into the media pond, made a tiny one day ripple, and sank without a trace. Yes, of course 5e has the same visibility on the 'dorknet' that D&D has always had, but nothing more. I don't see any fruits of some masterpiece of media strategy that Mike seems to be implying. Rather the opposite, 4e was constantly talked about, its releases were talked about, there was always a great deal of chatter in the usual places, because there was always stuff to talk about.



We weren't interested in PotA. So what WotC has for product offerings for us is literally zero. Nor is a module going to be talked about for a year, even if people are playing it for a full year (and I think a year-long module is a bit of a stretch myself).

Nor, TBH, do a lot of gew gaws and whatnot really do much for me. I mean if they want to sell some high-quality game accessories that are really useful to us in our game, we might buy them. However I don't need WotC for that and there's not going to be IMHO much hype involved.

I get what Mike is trying to say. He's basically saying they're not going to put much stuff out, so they're going to really try to maximize their meagre production by husbanding the community's attention, keep things secret and only hype them at the very end, whatever. They are going to NEED to do that if they only sell 2 limited products a year. I guess what I mean is they might as well, if ROI is all that matters, then maybe putting out only 2 adventures and nothing else at least means you don't EVER have overstock?

Personally I think this is an anti-strategy. They did their best to create a whole competitor to themselves with PF, and now they've ceded the industry to said competitor. Gosh, its almost like they WANT to kill the product.

The Player's Handbook is still in the top 100 selling books on Amazon, so if they want to kill the product they really ed up.

 

[Corpsetaker]

The Player's Handbook is still in the top 100 selling books on Amazon, so if they want to kill the product they really ed up.

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the life of D&D going. All it means is that the books are still selling on Amazon even though other gaming companies such as Pathfinder rely more on their own website to sell products.

I see this brought up a lot but I think it doesn't carry as much weight as you hope it does.

 

[Corpsetaker]

So homebrew, use someone else's homebrew, find a different game. Frankly it seems like the latter is your best bet, because if what you found in the PHB left you uninterested or didn't old your interest for even 9 months, then what on earth leads you to believe their next releases will be any different? I mean, the classes in the PHB are absolutely a blast, at least many of us thinks so; really, do you think they're just holding the cool stuff back? It sounds to me like 5e might not be the game you want.
Or maybe you're right. Maybe they'll put together a PHB2 that will be all you were hoping for. I'm in the "more the merrier" camp, so I hope that's the case.

Regarding media, there can be no doubt the the D&D brand has receive far more widespread attention with their multimedia approach than they would by focusing on table-top alone. Sword Coast Legends has garnered quite a bit of attention at conferences like GDC and E3, bringing home a slew of awards. That might not matter to you, but it brings the Dungeons & Dragons name back in full force into video gaming, where it hasn't been strong for years. And that does bring new table-top players from the gaming world. Games like Lords of Waterdeep, D&D Dice Masters, and the Adventure System board games, such as Temple of Elemental Evil again keep D&D much more strongly in the gaming culture zeitgeist than it could ever be on its own; not to mention being successful money-makers on their own. D&D isn't dominating the media and it never will; there will never be a media blitz. But there is undeniably a presence, and that presence is quite strong for a 40 year old brand, thanks to the approach they're taking. They've made a solid table top game in 5e, and there's no reason they shouldn't be bringing the D&D spirit to other media for people who either don't know about or aren't interested in table top RPGs.

I'm in the camp of people who will be disappointed if there is nothing more than two mega-adventures per year; I want setting support. I too want to hear about their plan for a (hopefully) open gaming license; I want (sanctioned) community support. But the Wizards D&D team is a very small part of a very large company, undoubtedly navigating some tricky political waters within Hasbro, and I'd rather they move slowly and carefully to do 5e right, rather than rush out a bunch of options that could either sell very poorly or dilute the brand or cause Hasbro to limit their creative freedom. They designed the game with classes and subclasses to provide an elegant way to hook in new player options, so I have no doubt they will come in time. Most people who play the game, I think, have enough other things going on in their lives that they're still digesting all the awesomeness that's been released over the past year, to say nothing of the new races and spells in the PotA supplement.

I'm not going to quote each thing so I will number it.

1: This is why I want to know what the plan is. If the plan is to only release two AP's a year then I am gone. I will find another game to play that gets more support and stop wasting my time waiting for something that is never going to come.

2: So one game that has no ads on TV what so ever will suddenly bring it all back in full force? That's a lot of wishful thinking. The presence is not strong, it's probably the same as it has been for the last 15 years. D&D has never faded away because there has always been a new edition to keep it alive. There is nothing being done now that hasn't already been done so acting like 5th edition has broken new grounds or has caused a surge in D&D's popularity is a myth. You hear more about it now because of how common and easily accessible social media has come.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Actually, if you search the web for major media references to D&D you find there's no news about it at all. There's almost nothing about any future anything. Maybe once every few months the term "Dungeons & Dragons" surfaces in the media, usually just a cultural reference. Very rarely someone comments on having played, or some reference to people who do play, etc. There's absolutely no hype about ANYTHING. None.
...
In fact it looks to me like 5e fell into the media pond, made a tiny one day ripple, and sank without a trace.

I think yer google's broke.

(those are all fairly recent articles, no less!)

We weren't interested in PotA. So what WotC has for product offerings for us is literally zero.

This is a weird bit I'm trying to parse. So we assume WotC hasn't released anything for the last ~7 months that your group is personally interested in. That somehow means that WotC is offering zero products to you.

That just seems contradictory. Okay, fair enough, you didn't want to unearth the deception, or drive back tiamat or whatever but that doesn't mean that they haven't offered you any products. They've offered you products! You just haven't been interested in their offerings. These are not the same problems.

Nor, TBH, do a lot of gew gaws and whatnot really do much for me. I mean if they want to sell some high-quality game accessories that are really useful to us in our game, we might buy them.

Sounds like you're just not interested in much new D&D stuff then?

Personally I think this is an anti-strategy. They did their best to create a whole competitor to themselves with PF, and now they've ceded the industry to said competitor. Gosh, its almost like they WANT to kill the product

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The Player's Handbook is still in the top 100 selling books on Amazon, so if they want to kill the product they really ed up.

And 4e was equally up there in the 4e days. I don't see any material difference here. If all this product strategy is supposed to be having a different effect, where's the different effect?

 

[SigmaOne]

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the life of D&D going. All it means is that the books are still selling on Amazon even though other gaming companies such as Pathfinder rely more on their own website to sell products.

I see this brought up a lot but I think it doesn't carry as much weight as you hope it does.

I don't hope anything. I don't care except that people are making arguments without any backing, based solely on their sliver of a viewpoint on the situation. Most people viewing and arguing, myself included, have no particular insight to how successful WotC's strategy for 5e has been, but that doesn't prevent a lot of bluster --- mostly from people who just want them to be doing something more to their own personal liking.

Most arguments betray, unsurprisingly due to selection bias of the web forums, a perspective on this discussion that hails from the hobbyist side of a dichotomy, which is much smaller in scope than the world of people who have heard of, are interested, and have played D&D in general. Most people who play D&D don't read through every page of the PHB and don't care to. Most people have to check to remember the details of spells they cast in every single session, because they only get to play maybe twice a month, and they're not spending their spare time reading up on or talking about the game. There's a whole world of people who are playing the game as a game, an occasional fun thing they get to do with friends, and not a hobby which drives them. Which is what WotC wants by the way. They made that extraordinarily clear throughout the playtest --- they want a game that can be played quickly in a pick-up session; they want classes that can be understood by people new to the game and players not inclined to read 30 pages before playing; they want to open the game up to the "uninitiated".

If you think the fact that the Players Handbook, the flagship product of Dungeons & Dragons, almost a year later is one of the top 100 books on Amazon, has no significance to whether Dungeons & Dragons is a successful product right now, then you're simply denying reality. Your beliefs are guided by your desires.

As for what the success of D&D will look like in the future, 3 to 4 years from now... well that's what this thread is about. That's what Mearls is grappling with in these tweets. It's fairly clear that WotC needs a to steer a different course than they have in the past, as no edition has exhibited particular sales success for more than 3 to 4 years.

What I see here are a bunch of arm-chair game designers claiming doom and gloom if the company doesn't pursue a strategy that brings them personally what they want.