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Mike Mearls Talks (er, Tweets) About the Industry

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game. So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours. I think...

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours.

I think there's a market for lots of different RPGs in that sense. Because each gaming group playing D&D is running its own unique game, in their own homebrew setting with their own house rules.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
To me, the pachyderm squatting in the corner, is:

"yeah, current RPG fans have a script that plays out badly for publishers".

Is that the gamer identity trend to see oneself as a XXX-player rather than more globally as an RPGer. Boardgame clubs may meet weekly but the games will cycle round week-by-week with new games being tried and becoming favourites, or having a spell of popularity before waning with the old favourites appearing regularly. Not many clubs - I suggest - would be a Settlers BG club.

Yeah, that's why I don't play board games often - the idea of "new board game a week" where I learn an all new rules set and shell out $300 a month for stuff I'll never use again that takes up tons of space hold nomwater for me. I like the feeling of continuation, of exploring a rules set, and exploring a joint creative effort, and an RPG is the intersection of that. In my experience, board game players are like RPG gamers - the vast majority are happy to sit down for a game or two, but have no interest in buying anything for it, so one person saddles the cost burden, both in paying for everything and learning the game. If I bought board game stuff at the rate I bought RPG stuff, My house would look like an episode of Hoarders.
 

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Henry

Autoexreginated
Not printing a half edition was the reason that TSR collapsed.

Actually, they did - it was called Player's Option series, and they STILL collapsed. They collapsed for multiple reasons, and not bothering to listen to their customers was one of them.
 

AlphaDean

Villager
It's simple. D&D is a brand name, not a game system. D&D will always be what it is. Everything is the runner up. Universal frameworks are smart and can work. Yet not one of them will ever serve everyones needs, wants and desires as far as a game is concerned. The biggest shot to the gaming industry was the introduction of CCG's (collectible card games). They almost destroyed the land of RPG's as we know. For a minute there everyone was focused on the next CCG. Many games got lost in the rush to create the lazy man's role play. Card games did something to industry both negative and positive. It catered to those with less creativity and actually served as gate way for many people to try something more complex as time when it on.

It also served the insurgence of the more complex game mechanics. Some people lend themselves well to the "crunchy" mechanics where some like the a little more free form-ness to create. I personally fall about in the middle of the road with this desire. I've been doing this RPG thing for more than 30 years (real close to 40) no. I personally don't see the end of the road for this either. In summation I will say that the universal system is a real dream, but I'll continue to try out new games, systems, and genres of play... But D&D will always be "Old Faithful". She's tested, tried and true... even though 4E made me a Pathfinder fan as well. 4E was the only iteration of D&D that collected dust on my shelves...
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
D&D still has its market in the face of competition from incredibly rich game experiences. The gulf between video games and TTRPG's, and video-games with VR and TTRPG's, is not so huge. VR dramatically increases immersion, but until software can generate realistic human interaction on the fly, the table-top will continue to have its place.

When a game really does generate a realistic NPC, with all of the humour and weirdness and complexity of people I've known all my life, the world will have changed so radically that even the phrase "table-top" will seem quaintly prehistoric.

Oh yes, definitely, PC to PC and PC to NPC, NPC-NPC interaction are very important aspects of D&D which are hard to do in a game. Although using ventrillo or the like is the obvious PC-PC solution, and if you have a DM who can assume the NPC voices then that handles that.

But they already have bots which pass the Turing test now, today. And it should be possible to make an Orc interact with you better than some DM snarls and grunts that you often get. And monsters don't need to speak, or at least often don't. They do need to think though, and that's harder to pull off right. AI is getting there, slowly. And like in Neverwinter when a DM can assume full control over an NPC or monster that should be a decent stopgap solution.

The real value of a DM then becomes more in the world-creation, and NPC high-level planning and strategizing and motivating. And you don't need D&D rules for that, in fact they are a distraction towards a DM's true purpose. All the nuts and bolts of the combat engine could be hidden away behind a UI and some sliders to control difficulty.

Since there's no reason a VR game can't have virtual DMs or with players playing the villains or monsters if they want to, VR can pick up where MMOs left off and run with it. In a sense, Wow has already stolen D&D's lunch money, several times over.

My point is, once you move away from the tabletop and turn-based rules migrate into real-time sims, especially full immersion ones with presence, there is no need for an actual D&D rulebook per se, only the IPs of the monsters and campaign settings.

In a game loop, you can have a physically accurate and complete model of swordplay and environment interactions for PCs and critters, while mixing in magic which breaks those laws of nature, and the hand-of-god DM who is pulling some strings here and there where it suits him (or her). I don't see why the average person even needs to know how each game engine works under the hood, or even if they could properly comprehend a real-time simulation even if they wanted to. It's best to keep these design focii separate. At the table top, a game system lives and dies by its rules, and being rules-light while still powerful, flexible, and fun is a distinct advantage (5th ed vs 3rd/4th is a good example). 3rd and 4th were way more complicated than they needed to be to make a workable D&D game, and often got in the way of casual gameplay for the majority of gamers who are not crunch-fanatics unlike most of us on these boards. But in a computer simulation, there's no reason you couldn't have a skill system that reflects actual skill use (like Everquest, for example), and remove a lot of the nuisance from managing those crunchy subsystems. I hated assigning skills in 3rd ed, for example. And 4th was just : pick arcana and/or perception and/or stealth, and you're done, basically. The rest were useless. And skill challenges were a pathetic mini-game of multiple dice rolling that everybody hated. Both skill systems sucked, in different ways. 3rd edition was way too customizable and tedious, 4th edition went too far the other way and made it absurdly simple. 5th edition is slightly better, but a sim could do it far, far better, from both a usability point of view, and a crunch point of view.

A lot has been said about Wizard's inability to manage Digital tools endeavors, even getting a character creator seems beyond their reach (and for such a simple game too, for shame). I'm not optimistic about Wizards either identifying what their core property is in a purely digital context, in an era of massive virtual worlds and incredible technology. But they might. They did properly identify what people wanted out of a tabletop D&D ruleset. By asking people. Lots of people. And trying different things until they could boil it down. Simple rules. Fast combat. Simple fighters that just attack at the same table as complex maneuvers. Simple blaster casters at the same table as complex ones that do amazing things but require some thought. A challenge for PCs to survive. Flexible, smooth, versatile combat system with few moving parts and much less immersion-breaking game jargon to learn and use. Faster character creation.

But in a VR game, you can have both "make a quick character" and customize in the same character creation step, or at each level up. You could have fully randomly generated characters, worlds, NPCs, even adventures. With or without a DM. Am I regurgitating Neverwinter Night's press release? Yes! But that's an isomorphic, turn-based adaptation of D&D rules which are still a far cry from what the legacy of D&D could evolve into. The idea of an imaginary world run like a simulation, created by a DM with other people running around killing monsters and taking their stuff, is golden. Now Wizards needs to recognize what the fundamental idea of D&D is, and exploit it in a non-turn-based, non-human-run-simulation, context. Of course the DM should run the overall game, but not at the level of deciding if each sword thrust lands. That should be entirely abstracted away from players. You don't want to see the code running the Matrix, that's the whole point of full immersion. D&D should embrace full immersion, it paid off with 5th edition and it would pay off in VR. Cut away the legacy turn-based rules, and identify what is the real magic behind the idea of D&D. A fantasy world, with an independently run reality (a sim, if you will), yet with human interaction built in so they can use it as a playground. And that fundamentally intersects with VR. You could even say VR borrows a lot from D&D, except does it with computers instead of human imagination directly powering the imagery.

It's also a false dichotomy I think to say, a graphical representation can't be as good as a book or one's imagination. With better / easier content generation tools, that line will also blur until it disappears entirely (brain-computer interfaces).
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Sometimes you find games where there's a set of rules and then you apply the same rules over a series of otherwise separate games that are independent of each other. So people who can play one don't need to learn how to play others, but will need to buy the new boards and counters and other material. Most common in wargames and train company games.

Sounds like Campaign Settings. Dark Sun doesn't need the same classes/races/assumptions as Dragonlance, but it shares a basic character creation/action resolution/challenge presentation scheme. Limited by the "loop" in that you explore new settings when you re-start a campaign, but aren't interested in them in the middle of a campaign.

Then there's the 'expansions' which add new content to the base game. That might mean new maps, new counters, new <whatever the game uses>. While not strictly a boardgame (it uses cards) Sentinels of the Multiverse follows this pattern, with a base game and a variety of different extra sets ranging from ones that are almost the size of the base game to ones which provide a single new character or location.

Splatbooks. Add Class X or Race Y onto the base game. Limited by the "loop" in that character death is infrequent, so people aren't creating lots and lots of new characters. Adventures, too, to a certain degree (new board, new enemies).

Some expansions add new equipment so you can play the base game with more players. So if the base game is for a maximum of two players, an expansion gives you the 'gear' you need to add another one or two.

Doesn't sound much like something D&D would really need...

Thanks for the details, giving me interesting thoughts
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
And I think that's only half of the story. I would put it like this:

"Yeah, current RPG fans have a script that plays out badly for publishers when those publishers are part of a publicly-listed toy company with unrealistic expectations about the value of a tabletop RPG, a problem that disappears when the tabletop RPG belongs, instead, to a smaller, private company."

Hasbro should sell off the rights/licence out the rights to the tabletop RPG for years 3-5+ to a smaller company. Heck, let the current employees lead a small MBO to do so. It's been established that the value is not seen to be in the tabletop RPG but in the ancillary products so monetise the tabletop game by ditching it while retaining the IP rights so that movies and toys etc... can be made.

In reality, the script playing out badly for publishers really only refers to WotC; plenty of other publishers - Paizo, Pelgrane, MCG etc... - seem to have found their niche and are thriving. It's the big corporate expectations which are WotC's problem and hiving off the tabletop RPG while retaining IP rights is the only way to deal with that.

You say this as though the D&D department of WotC is being held hostage here. Far from it. They are okay with the current status quo. They specifically are doing what they're doing on purpose. So no... the publishers of D&D have no issues right now at all, so it doesn't matter in the slightest how big or how small a publisher they are.

It's only the fans that are so up in arms and feeling like they're being held hostage here. They want to buy D&D stuff in much higher quantities that are currently available. But you know what? Too fricking bad. It's apparently not changing any time soon... D&D is not going to be sold off to a "small publisher"... and if you play the game, then just play the game. With what you have. You don't NEED three more books of options, there's more than plenty of options available right now to create characters ad infinitum. And if by some chance of alternate reality you've somehow already run through every single sub-class of every single class in the PH? Start running through the sub-classes in the Waterborne Adventures and the Alternate Class Options documents on the WotC website. Plenty of stuff there for you to use too. But if that's STILL not enough for you... then just stop playing 5E. No one will care. If it makes you happier to go back to Pathfinder, or return to World of Darkness, or start in on Savage Worlds, or try out Numerera... do it! Have fun!

But enough with the fantasies of what could happen for D&D if only someone else published it. Or how if only WotC would follow the release model people keep insisting is "best for the game". Cause none of it is happening. Or at least, it ain't happening just because people keep repeating themselves saying they want it. WotC knows. They've known since the beginning. But they're still ONLY going to do what they'll do when they feel the time is right to do it.
 


I think the business model Mike & Co. are attempting is pretty smart. Maybe it doesn't work -- maybe not enough people buy the APs, maybe attrition is too high without more new product, maybe retailers forget to stock it when they aren't reminded by new product in the catalog every month -- but I think it's a sound strategy that's worth a try. In that year three to five period, they can shift gears and release some new material to reinvigorate the line.

When I was with FFG, I wanted to do complete campaigns for non-fantasy games based more on the offline computer game model. You take Blue Planet, for example, and you put rules, setting material and adventures for a full campaign arc all in one book or box. You play it, put it on the shelf (or sell it on ebay), and buy the next one. The successful titles get sequels. Rinse and repeat. What Wizards is doing is pretty similar, except the model is Core Rules + Campaign Book. I hope it's successful.
 
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Sadrik

First Post
The "multiple lines" thing was what TSR did back in the '80s and contributed to their downfall. It won't work. It takes too much time and manpower to design ,write, and produce multiple lines of "individual" games for all the different settings, all to grab an audience that is barely big enough to sustain itself. That's exactly why they produce the one core game with the "expansions" being the products for each setting (if and when they get around to producing them.)

I disagree with your assertion. I think there were other market factors that contributed more. For instance, they did not have the best product at the time and the tastes of players had changed and they were branching out. They also had a glut of splats (same issue with 3.Xe). The game was a mess, the rules were not coherent. When 3e came out it was a wave of unification and it swept the rpg landscape. 2e had great ideas, however, those ideas were not implemented well in all cases. The glut of splats and rules incoherence, not "multiple lines" caused it to implode. Others did it better at the time. Another point of evidence, early TSR did lots of lines and they did it very successfully. They had Indiana Jones, Top Secret, Boothill, Star Frontier, Gama World, and I am sure several others that I am forgetting. They were successful in this.

Mike said we are the D&D company. Instead they need to brand themselves as the RPG company where D&D is a setting, there primary setting, but they should sell and implement many others. What went right in their 1e expansion that failed in there 2e expansion... Rules glut and splats, not settings, ymmv.
 

delericho

Legend
I disagree with your assertion. I think there were other market factors that contributed more.

There were indeed other factors: the bottom dropped out of the Dragon Dice fad just after they'd placed a huge order, they had an issue with their novel publisher at a time when cash flow was already tight, and they had warehouses full of decade-old books that they wouold never sell.

But the multiple settings was also a significant problem - the majority of gamers don't use any setting at all, and almost none use more than one. Since it costs as much to create a setting-specific book as a non-setting specific one, that means the RoI for setting-specific books is much smaller, since you're spending the money to appeal to a subset of a niche audience.

And that's not just my (or DEFCON's) assertion - Ryan Dancey and Lisa Stevens have both written about the fall of TSR at length. See "From TSR to WotC" in the Resources link at the top of the page for more.

Another point of evidence, early TSR did lots of lines and they did it very successfully. They had Indiana Jones, Top Secret, Boothill, Star Frontier, Gama World, and I am sure several others that I am forgetting. They were successful in this.

Even early TSR was far from a well-run company.
 

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