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Mike Mearls Talks (er, Tweets) About the Industry

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game. So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours. I think...

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours.

I think there's a market for lots of different RPGs in that sense. Because each gaming group playing D&D is running its own unique game, in their own homebrew setting with their own house rules.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.
 

darius0

Explorer
On the VR side discussion... I have an Oculus Rift VR headset and it is great; I have little desire to play a first-person video game without VR and motion controls now, but it doesn't effect my desire to play D&D around a table with a bunch of friends. It may take an extremely large amount of processing power to replace the imagination and improvisation available when playing a table-top RPG.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I feel like my experience shows it to be very hard to get people to consistently volunteer to play things besides D&D. That is, you'll find that there are 100 other systems out there that some people like, but if you get 6 random gamers together, they'll all probably play D&D.
That's been my experience, too. While you'd have little trouble in rounding up a group who all agreed that D&D wasn't a very good system, and that there were many better ones, you'd quickly find that they couldn't agree on which of those better systems to play. But everyone's familiar with D&D, because that's what they started with. They'd love to move on from it, but nothing else has gotten a critical mass going.

I think its because fantasy is the central genre, all the other genre of RPG still contain some element of fantasy, but D&D just IS fantasy. And its a pretty broad generic fantasy that's hard to completely differentiate from. The system has a very steep power curve too, which is really still quite rare in RPGs.
Can't agree. There have been lots of better-than-D&D broad/generic fantasy games, including one edition of D&D, and none of them caught on. I don't think steep power curves are particularly appealing, either - if that's a key part of D&D appeals, why do people stop campaigns early or come up with variants like E6 to cut off the top of that curve?

It's not the genre or the system, it's the history & name recognition. The hobby is populated by people who started with D&D, it's something we almost all have in common. If we couldn't at least tolerate D&D, we wouldn't have stuck with the hobby.

For a superior game to challenge D&D, it'd have to gain similar name recognition outside the hobby, such that a whole generation of gamers try it, first, instead of D&D.

As far as Eurogames go, I think its the design and play conventions that make those games. This has NOT happened in RPGs. 4e was informed BY Eurogames in its design, but there's very little consistency in that sense across other games. You cannot define a genre of RPGs that group together based on a physical design sensibility, which is ALL that defines Eurogames.
Phsyical design sensibility, or play conventions? I know Eurogames are more sophisticated, designed with the help of game theory that didn't exist when traditional family board games were invented.

Mike seems to be quite fixed on the Eurogame analogy too. The 4e designers certainly pushed hard for a design language that was informed by them. I'm just not sure it works. I'm not sure there IS anything to 'figure out' with RPGs. Just publish what people clamour for and will buy. If production costs are too expensive? Lower the costs!
The problem is growth. It's the same folks clamouring every year. Less the ones who die in the mean time.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
They DID do a half edition: the black border reprints of the core rulebooks followed by all the Player Options books.
It didn't save them. Not any more than Essentials could save 4e.

It did not save them because Player Options were not a half edition. They would be more comparable to maybe Pathfinder Unchained or Unearthed Arcana. I loved Players Options but those books were in a totally different space then the core books.
 

It did not save them because Player Options were not a half edition. They would be more comparable to maybe Pathfinder Unchained or Unearthed Arcana. I loved Players Options but those books were in a totally different space then the core books.
It served the same purpose: bring attention back to the game, sell some new lower-cost higher-demand books, and provide a sales spike. Just like 3.5e (which was originally planned as a reprint with errata and minor corrections) and Essentials (which tried to tweak while being completely additive and backwards compatible).
However, in all three cases, the fans called it for what it was: a cash grab. It didn't serve the game or fill the needs of the fans or give anyone content that they didn't have before. It existed solely to make the company money.

We've seen three very different methods of reprints. There's the art & formatting redux of 2e, there's the heavy rules revision of 3e, and there's the repackaging and refocusing of 4e. None have really extended the life of the game in a meaningful way, especially the 2e and 4e attempts (it's hard to say how much of 3e's continuation was the shot-in-the-arm of 3.5 and how much was people just liking 3e).

A rules revision seems the least popular implementation. Not everyone will make the transition so sales will always seem lesser compared to the original. (Sales of 3.0 were 1 1/2 times that of 3.5e) Because it feels mandatory it chafes people. New books work best when people want to buy them not have to buy them. I'm sure lots of gamers decided that 3e was no longer for them - since they'd have to convert everything back to 3.0 - and stopped buying books. And the continued unpopularity of the .5 edition likely hurt Essentials, as people saw it as a similar revision. So the benefits of the mid-edition revision are debatable.

In contrast, I like what Paizo did and WotC is currently doing. Where they keep the books in print but incorporate errata into the later printings. I don't need to buy the books - the errata is free on the website - but I gain a benefit if I buy a second copy of the rules. If they continue this with a second or third round of errata, they can have sustained sales of the core rulebooks to returning buyers and newcomers.


That said, when the edition does start to flag, a revision might be preferable to a brand new edition. Especially if the designers are open and explain that. But I certainly hope that's more than 5 years away.
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
The big problem of VR devices is that to merely get full HD at 30 frames your GPU has to provide 4K at 60 frames, since the work needs to be done for each eye. Nice if you are among the few per thousand PC players with a GeForce Titan, but the vast majority is running less than a GeForce 960. And totally forget about XB1 and PS4, where they struggle to get 720p at 30 frames

Completely false (sorry to go off tangent here for a sec). Compare a last-gen title like GTA V that really pushed the limits of what the 360 and ps3 could do, they were doing 720p at 30 fps just fine. Next gen was released at 1080p 30fps. Many second generation next-gen titles are now hitting 60fps at 1080p, although they certainly struggle to get there. So you're quite off.

VR just didn't have a real chance before because the tech wasn't there, the GPU performance wasn't there to do 1440p at 90fps with low input lag, and they didn't have the greats like Carmack and 2 billion dollar investments from Facebook, Valve, Sony, Microsoft, all working in tandem if not outright collaborating, to get there. I see on steam there are already VR titles out now, and some of the new stuff coming out next year looks incredible.

Even a non-VR game, like "For Honor" by Ubisoft, looks so stunning even on a TV, that once you add VR to it it will be even better. There is plenty of valid discussion to be had about when exactly VR will overtake PC gaming let alone couch potato console gaming, but if there's a killer app for gaming, it's VR. Photorealistic graphics are also not just a buzzword, there are screenshots of ray-traced cloud-rendered scenes that look so good most people in a survey literally cannot tell which is real, in a side by side comparison of the real life scene it's based on. So it's no gimmick. I give D&D 5 years, tops, before it putters out of the mass consciousness and its fans flock towards some VR equivalent, probably made by some other company because Wizards of the Coast has proven itself repeatedly completely inept at managing its digital properties. They made one 4th edition game, by Atari, that was just terrible. Now more turn-based Neverwinter titles that might be terrific fun but not bringing in crowds like any of the big titles.

D&D branded properties could stand a chance, but those videogame titles need some bold vision, big funding. I just don't see Wizards doing it. Maybe if Hasbro steps in and offers the D&D brand to something like Dice or some Epic studio using Unreal engine it might do something. Instead they always do these tier B titles that are stuck in the past, turnbased, isomorphic, stuff we've seen a million times already and is just frankly not that impressive, and it wasn't even when it was new. Some of the earliest D&D titles were first person, at least. Turn-based is perfect for table top, but a total cop out for joining the rest of the industry on a wave of innovation. Having one foot stuck firmly in the 1990s is not going to save D&D as an IP either.

5th edition might be making waves in the TTRPG market, but everything they've done except for the playtests has been quite anti-consumer. They don't even want to sell people campaign settings, people end up playing the same adventures over and over. Most gamers out there don't have time to run custom campaigns. It's 2015 not 1989, we have the internet, video on demand, 3D, VR, smartphones, toy drones. The list of things that vie for a gamer's attention these days is insane. And the pressure and difficulties to get a gaming group together, even a casual one, are harder and harder. For every gamer who has spent a massive amount of time playing Wow or other games compared to their actual D&D time, just imagine when they can play a truly socially immersive and incredible graphics experience with 3D sound, presence, haptics, dual hand controllers, gesture recognition.

We might differ on when exactly VR titles will take over, but they will, no question. Nostradamus, out. :)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It did not save them because Player Options were not a half edition. They would be more comparable to maybe Pathfinder Unchained or Unearthed Arcana. I loved Players Options but those books were in a totally different space then the core books.
Also comparable to half-eds.

Really, every prior ed of D&D has had a significant course-change/core-updating product.

0e: Greyhawk (radically changed the exp system to move the game away from monster-killing to treasure-hunting, or so I've been told).

1e: Unearthed Arcana

2e: Player's Option books

3e: 3.5

4e: Essentials.


But, yeah, nothing 'saved' 'em from the inevitable next (npi) edition.


5e will doubtless get something. Maybe it'll only be on-line, maybe it'll be the mothballing of the product line until further notice, maybe more staff and a flurry of splatbooks? Who knows?
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
Lots of points of discussion and lots of questions to be/can be asked...

I feel that in order for things to progress to another evolution of rpgs within the entirety of the rpg industry then these separate companies will have to come together to produce products that are combinations of different aspects mixed together.

We have D&D. We have these D&D Worlds. The Realms. Eberron. Dragonlance. Spelljammer.

D&D is from WotC... and it's sticking with WotC.

But for things to expand, and become something Else. An example would be WotC teaming up with Pinnacle and doing a Savage Worlds Eberron.

Or teaming up with Atlas Gaming and doing a conglomeration of D&D with Feng Shui.

Or teaming up with Evil Hat and doing an official D&D Fate Edition. Or Forgotten Realms Fate.

Or teaming up with Green Ronin and doing a Spelljammer AGE game.

So far the only company doing this is Pinnacle teaming up with Palladium of all companies to do a Savage Worlds Rifts.

Or WotC teaming up with Evil Hat to do a D&D Dresden Files, or with Onyx Path to do a D&D World of Darkness.

Just a lot of examples of opening up systems and game brands to appeal to a wider audience while also making these different entities possibly compatible with each other. Instead of thinking that they have to keep to themselves, and doing their own separate work... coming together and working together could be of greater benefit for all.
 


Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
Something else... There are games powered by Fate and Apocalypse World Engine and the new Blades in the Dark and the upcoming .... ugh I so forgot its name but it is that new demon themed game that had a large kickstarter...

All of these are games aimed more at the shorter focused game lengths. None of these are designed to be played for a year within the same campaign. Most are perfect for about five to ten sessions.

And games like Tenra Bansho Zero are available, where the average campaign is about three to four sessions.

So games that are aimed at shorter campaign lengths are here. It's just that the whole of the rpg industry has yet to fully embrace them because we have over 30 years of lineage saying that campaigns should be year long, or multi-year long, experiences and in today's age that's just not normal anymore.

The internet started the shift, which rpgs fell behind on...than we have MMOs, and now Mobas... and all these tell us that people today, kids today, have much shorter attention spans than kids from the 70s/80s/90s. It's just how it is. The rpg paradigm has been behind the curve for a long time, and in the mass consciousness of rpgs it's still behind because games like D&D and Pathfinder are the most popular games, and their paradigm is built on 40 years of history.

So rpgs today are divided in two groups I'd say... the groups that prefer the long term, year plus long campaigns and the groups who prefer shorter games/campaigns that might last anywhere from a month to six months before starting a new one. I know I am in the latter camp... so in this way games like D&D and Pathfinder that sort of expect players to play through all 20 levels are not really for me anymore.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
Lots of points of discussion and lots of questions to be/can be asked...

I feel that in order for things to progress to another evolution of rpgs within the entirety of the rpg industry then these separate companies will have to come together to produce products that are combinations of different aspects mixed together.

We have D&D. We have these D&D Worlds. The Realms. Eberron. Dragonlance. Spelljammer.

D&D is from WotC... and it's sticking with WotC.

But for things to expand, and become something Else. An example would be WotC teaming up with Pinnacle and doing a Savage Worlds Eberron.

Or teaming up with Atlas Gaming and doing a conglomeration of D&D with Feng Shui.

Or teaming up with Evil Hat and doing an official D&D Fate Edition. Or Forgotten Realms Fate.

Or teaming up with Green Ronin and doing a Spelljammer AGE game.

So far the only company doing this is Pinnacle teaming up with Palladium of all companies to do a Savage Worlds Rifts.

Or WotC teaming up with Evil Hat to do a D&D Dresden Files, or with Onyx Path to do a D&D World of Darkness.

Just a lot of examples of opening up systems and game brands to appeal to a wider audience while also making these different entities possibly compatible with each other. Instead of thinking that they have to keep to themselves, and doing their own separate work... coming together and working together could be of greater benefit for all.

Didn't Steve Jackson Games do this with it's GURPS line?
 

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