D&D 4E Min/Maxing in 4e

[Nifft]

So, here's where I'm confused. On the one hand you say this, but on the other hand you said that giving them the dilettante-stat-swap for free would be too much. What's the middle ground?

A feat, like I said in the other thread. It works out to about the same bonus that other Encounter attack boost feats give.

Clear now?

-- N

 

[billd91]

If a combat lasts 10 rounds, and you attack once per round, your expected difference due to a +1 to attack is half of a hit.

But how many attack powers entail just making a single attack? I'm finding plenty among the ranger and fighter powers that involve up to 3 attacks. And with relatively few choices of defenses to target for these classes (compared to say, wizards and clerics), my guess is that +1 will be pretty important.

 

[Nifft]

But how many attack powers entail just making a single attack? I'm finding plenty among the ranger and fighter powers that involve up to 3 attacks. And with relatively few choices of defenses to target for these classes (compared to say, wizards and clerics), my guess is that +1 will be pretty important.

Yeah, this. I'm looking at things more from the perspective of the machine gun Ranger, the area-burst Cleric, the blast-and-burst Wizard, etc. than the Star Pact Warlock who only chooses single-target powers.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, this. I'm looking at things more from the perspective of the machine gun Ranger, the area-burst Cleric, the blast-and-burst Wizard, etc. than the Star Pact Warlock who only chooses single-target powers.

Cheers, -- N

This is quite accurate. And OAs happen a lot more often in 4e than before too (for all those other classes not mentioned above. Even my level 2 Cleric (who only has one encounter AoE so far due to being low level) will usually make about 20 attacks an encounter, which is on average an extra hit per encounter from a +1 to hit. If that was against a minion, I may be very well be killing it before it can do something very annoying (hit for damage, give bonuses to kobolds who get bonuses for adjacency, provide Combat Advantage to a Kobold Skirmisher, etc).

We can consider a Wis 16 level 1 Clerics vis-a-vis Wis 20, facing those darned Kobolds with their 14 Reflex Defense. The Wis 16 Cleric hits on an 11, the 20 on a 9. That means that the Wis 20 Cleric hits 20% more. So if I was going to kill 10 minions on average (say there were 20 of them), I get to kill 12. It's definitely a big difference. This is also true for classes that can unleash powerful long-lasting buffs that depend on a successful hit (like the Warlord). Whether or not the Warlord daily hits can really make or break an entire final encounter.

 

[Cadfan]

But how many attack powers entail just making a single attack? I'm finding plenty among the ranger and fighter powers that involve up to 3 attacks. And with relatively few choices of defenses to target for these classes (compared to say, wizards and clerics), my guess is that +1 will be pretty important.

Maybe that was a bad example. It doesn't matter how many attack rolls you make, its still every 20th that you notice a difference in end result. If you make more attack rolls, there will be a difference more often per fight, but there will also be a lot more attack rolls where it doesn't make a difference per fight. A precisely proportional increase, as a matter of fact.

Look, people, I'm not saying that everyone should go around with 16s in their primary stat willy nilly. But if you've got a reason for it, knock yourself out. The game was designed on an array, you won't screw yourself for lack of a 20.

 

[Nifft]

Look, people, I'm not saying that everyone should go around with 16s in their primary stat willy nilly. But if you've got a reason for it, knock yourself out. The game was designed on an array, you won't screw yourself for lack of a 20.

In fact, you most likely will screw yourself if you have a 20.

The optimal stat is 18 for your attack stat, because every class has at least one secondary and one tertiary stat that you simply cannot dump.

Thus, the only non-obvious "optimization" choice the players need to make is: 16/14/14/13/10/8 or 16/16/13/11/10/8.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kzach]

Personally - just IMO, mind you - this entire debate is rather pointless (or maybe just beside the point). Players who desire to ABUSE a game system will do so regardless of whether that system is actually PRONE to abuse or not.

Ah, I think you're confusing min/maxing with abuse.

Using a loop-hole to get a benefit that far outweighs the balance of the system is abusing the system. Min/maxing, aka optimising, isn't.

Also, the question is whether or not 4e is or isn't a system that encourages optimising and, if optimising should or shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[WarlockLord]

Alright, here's my question for you guys.

I am attempting to build a Drow Wizard (with Star Pact Warlock Training)/Doomsyaer/Eternal Seeker.

I have put a 16 in Int, a 14 in cha (16 with bonus), 14 in Con, 13 in Wis, 12 in Dex, and 8 in Str.

Am I screwed? None of my attacks are better than +3. On the other hand, I have powers that can hit every defense (I chose ray of enfeeblement for my encounter, BTW.)

So, do I drop this build, and go with a 20 cha fey pact warlock, or not?

 

[Rystil Arden]

In fact, you most likely will screw yourself if you have a 20.

The optimal stat is 18 for your attack stat, because every class has at least one secondary and one tertiary stat that you simply cannot dump.

Thus, the only non-obvious "optimization" choice the players need to make is: 16/14/14/13/10/8 or 16/16/13/11/10/8.

Cheers, -- N

It depends. Wisdom Cleric, at least, gets some (but not much) use out of a particularly high Charisma and doesn't use Strength at all. Con can help for HP if you like, but the Cleric, while perhaps a bit less resilient, is really not noticably less effective at Clericing in any way for the purchase of the 20 (and you can recoup the resilience with the Dwarf's racial bonus to Con). By the time you have many powers that get much use out of Charisma, you'll have a fine Charisma if you've been pumping Wis and Cha every stat raise.

For many many classes, you cannot get away with this, of course.

 

[Xfer83]

Nonsense. Lets say you're creating a Star Pact Dwarf Warlock. You get +2 from your race. You could set your stats so that you have an 18 Con, your Int is your next best stat, and you have a smattering of other things. You could then select Constitution based attacks for your Warlock. That would be one option.

Another option would be to set your charisma to 16, your con to 14 (16 after racial stat modifiers), and put the remaining points into Int and the other stats.

The first option gets you +4 attack and damage with all of your abilities.

The second option gets you +3 attack and damage with all of your abilities. But look at the choices you gained. Your constitution based attacks generally target Fortitude. Your charisma based attacks generally target Will. And of course both characters can use Eldritch Blast versus Reflex.

Not only have you gained the option of selecting a wider variety of powers, you've gained the option of attacking multiple defenses. This is NOT a trivial benefit, it only really cost you +1 attack and damage.

The same is true of clerics (strength for AC, wisdom for Reflex and Will) and Paladins (strength and charisma based attacks have different generalities about them). I can't think of anyone else with this issue.

I'm not going to claim that generalizing is objectively better than specializing, but its certainly not a foolish decision. If you're decent at eyeballing what defenses to target, that +1 attack and damage you spent could grant you significant increases in your chance to hit.

In addition to adding choice in what defense to target at the time of battle, characters with two attacking stats also have a much greater advantage in selecting powers known at time of level up.

This may seem obvious, however those advocating a purely one attack stat mentality for the split stat classes(cleric, paladin, warlock, and ranger may suffer consequences that aren't immediately obvious.

For example, what does a STR focused paladin with dump stat CHA select for a level 9 daily power?

The answer is I don't know because all three of the paladin's level 9 daily attack powers are CHA based. To add insult to injury, the paladin can't even select a lower level STR based power instead, because he already has the sole STR based level 1 daily and the sole STR based level 9 daily already.

This is an extreme case, however being MONO-attack stat can and will at some levels reduce your "choose a power" choice at level up to a "take the only power you don't suck at" non-choice.