Min-Maxing Skill Points -- Is There a Way Around This?

[Aluvial]

I have a small gripe about PC's maxing out certain skills and I'm not sure if I'm capable of getting the whole thought down here. What I'm wondering is, does anyone know of a system where skill points have to stay relatively even as they increase. I'll use two different skills for discussion, Tumble and Concentration (by the way, why is there only one skill for Con?), and for ease of use, physical and mental.

I have trouble with a character who has maxed his ranks in one type of skill, say physical skills, and lets other physical skills suffer by putting no ranks in them. This character becomes the best Tumbler in the world, but can't jump at all, can't swim at all, can't climb very well.

I find that PC's do this all of the time. You have one type of PC who basically pumps up one skill (again, Tumble), and is really, really good at it, but he can't balance to save his butt. It doesn't seem... realistic. Is that the problem I'm having? I think it is.

When you look at mental skills, take Concentration, there is obviously a big game need for it, but other mental skills suffer, like Spellcraft, or other important Knowledge skills. I'm not sure why there isn't a balancing agent that works for them....

You see what I mean? I'm not sure if I said it well enough to get my point across, but I'm looking for some system where certain skills raise and lower together (like an equalizer on your stereo, where one level sortof influences the others...)

Any ideas?

Aluvial

 

[Aaron L]

That is skill synergies, if you are a super great jumper you get a bonus to tumble. Aside from that, I dont think its a problem at all, people have narrow areas of specialty. Tumbling has very little to do with jumping, or climbing, or especially swimming. I can somersault like a champ, but I cant swim at all, Id get laughed at in a jumping contest, and if I tried to climb a tree Id fall after 2 feet.

Mental skills especially, one area of knowledge has little to do with others. Just ask scientists who are exoerts in thier field and completely lost in others.

 

[Crothian]

just start placing in situations where they need to use skills they haven't maxed.

 

[IronWolf]

just start placing in situations where they need to use skills they haven't maxed.

Like needing to use spellcraft when you are a concentration junkie cleric in order to find out the first spell your party wizard cast at the beginning of a battle was Expeditious Retreat!

 

[genshou]

Like needing to use spellcraft when you are a concentration junkie cleric in order to find out the first spell your party wizard cast at the beginning of a battle was Expeditious Retreat!

Considering your tone and the fact that you play under Crothian, I'd assume a very amusing story follows this lack of realization on said cleric's part?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The main suggestion is to keep appropriate DC's...

I have players who have started putting points into things like Profession: Cook because the characters have good odds at making most skill checks in the area's they have focused.
Having a +20 skill check in Ride is not really needed unless the GM artificially ramps DC's to keep his/her concept of 'PC should be able to fail'
{Altho, I must admit to having a character with a +20 to Ride.. but Cutter's concept is totally focused Wild Elf Mounted Warrior.. one who cannot be dismounted by anything shy of a great dragon ripping his bleeing torso from the horses back...}

A major design point that seems to always get lost is that at max Cross-Class ranks, the character is good at the skill. Max Class ranks equals benig one of the best at the skill.

Skill based encounters should be designed so that a Cross-Classed character can succeed at the task. Instead people ramp it up so that the players feel they really must max out teh *critical* skills {Spot, Tumble, Concentration..}

So. in closing ramble.. keep DC's normal and find uses for the less common skills.

 

[Kurotowa]

To answer to the topic, No there isn't. It's part of the D20 game system.

In some game systems having a small investment in a skill is worthwhile. In the White Wolf Storyteller system the skills have a 1-5 range, each point costs more than the previous one to get, and only two points will increase your effectiveness by an average of 50%-60%. Spreading out your skills is cheaper than maxing out a few and you get a significant result from doing so. So you'll find a multi-talented person is a viable character.

In D20 having a small investment in a skill is not worthwhile. Skills have no upper limit, each point costs the same from your very limited supply, and next to the random die roll a few points has very little positive influance. Spreading out your skills just makes you incompetent at a lot of things (I know, I did it with my first D20 PC). With ever increasing DCs and benefits from higher results, the system is designed with the assuption that you'll be keeping your skills at their highest level.

Don't think of it as minmaxing. Minmaxing is making your Charisma a dump stat because you know as the player you can talk well enough to make up for it. The D20 system punishes spreading your skill points around and rewards tight focus on a few skills. To complain is like saying that it's impossible to play a stupid Wizard because they don't get any of the good spells. That's just how the game is designed.

 

[francisca]

To answer to the topic, No there isn't. It's part of the D20 game system.

Yup. That is correct.

So, I offer this suggestion: re-engineer the skill system. I was going to do this when I was still running 3.5, but never got around to it. Here is my take:

Skill rolls:
Class Skill: d20 + level + ability mod + misc mods
Cross-Class: d20 + half level (rounded down) + ability mod + misc mods
non-class: d20 + ability + misc mods

in addition, when the char is created, pick a number of class skills equal to your INT mod. You gain +2 on these, as you are "good" at them. You get to add an additional skill you are good at when you get feats (3,6,9,12th... level)

I would toss out synergies, but keep aid another.

 

[EvilBen]

Check out Iron Hero's for a cool alternative to skills. Essentially, clump similar skills together into groups and then spend your skill points on a group of skills (each rank increases all skills in that group by one). That way someone who could tumble well could also climb and jump well (if you group those skills together...).

I also like francisca's suggestion.

EvilBen

 

[Crothian]

In D20 having a small investment in a skill is not worthwhile. Skills have no upper limit, each point costs the same from your very limited supply, and next to the random die roll a few points has very little positive influance. Spreading out your skills just makes you incompetent at a lot of things (I know, I did it with my first D20 PC). With ever increasing DCs and benefits from higher results, the system is designed with the assuption that you'll be keeping your skills at their highest level.

THis is all about the DM not the game. THe game might assume that some skills like search and disabele device are kept high, but for most things looking at the DCs in the PHB, the skills don't need to be maxed. But as most DMs seem to ignore adding in the need for many skills into their game it doesn't matter. Know the DM and what he tends to do.