Mind Flayer Extract ability...

[Marauder]

Hi all,

I was hoping that somebody could clear this up for me: does it take two or three rounds for a mind flayer to extract a victim's brain?

Fromm the SRD:

"Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the mind flayer must hit a Small to Large creature with its tentacle attack. If it gets a hold, it attaches the tentacle to the opponent’s head. A mind flayer can grab a Huge or larger creature, but only if it can somehow reach the foe’s head. After a successful grab, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent’s turn.

Extract (Ex): A mind flayer that begins its turn with all four tentacles attached and successfully maintains its hold automatically extracts the opponent’s brain, instantly killing that creature."

I am inclined to think that it takes 3 rounds. On the first round, it hits with one or more tentacles and (let's assume) succeeds in getting a Hold.

In the second round, (assuming that the victim hasn't escaped) it makes another grapple check and (let's say again) succeeds, thereby attaching any and all remaining tentacles.

On its third round it succeeds another grapple check and the victim is killed.

To me, this seems almost impossible for a mind flayer to achieve unless it gets lucky with its stun ability.

The other option is that it actually hits with all 4 tentacles, succeeds in getting 4 Holds, and extracts on the second round. The flaw here is that I am not sure if it can mke that many grapple checks in a round (it's limited to BAB isn't it - I've seen several variations on how grapple checks work with monsters with multiple attacks).

Thanks for your help!!

 

[Dr. Zoom]

You seem to have it right.

The improved grab ability allows a free grapple check with each tentacle if it hits in melee combat. So an illithid could extract a brain in round 2 if he got lucky in round 1 and attached all 4 tentacles.

 

[0-hr]

In my campaign, we allow the "attach 4" grapple check as a free action after the improved grapple freebie. So it takes two rounds to pull out the brain.

 

[Marauder]

Ouch Ki Ryn - a free grapple check on top of a free grab/hold? Isn't that a bit harsh?

Doctor Zoom - I wasn't sure about how mutliple grapple checks work with creatures possessing multiple attacks - it seems viable so I will go with that.

Thanks!

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Normally, you don't mix them. But improved grab allows a free grapple check if you hit, and the illithid gets four melee attacks with its tentacles. It does not get any more grapple checks in the first round. In the second round, it may attach all remaining tentacles with one grapple check. It gets two that round, in case it misses with the first. The third round is the extract round.

 

[smkun]

I think it goes like this.

Round 1) Attack with tentacles, if any of the 4 hit you get a free grapple check to attach the remaining 3.

Round 2) If the mind flayer has succesfully attached the 4 tentacles then it's a clear case of brain suck. If not it's rinse and repeat.

For some real fun try out a Vampiric Mind Flayer Psion

“Shugol”
Vampiric Mind Flayer / Psion 12
HD: 8d12+12d12 (168) CR 23
STR: 22/+6 DEX: 22/+6 CON: -- INT: 23/+6 WIS: 21/+5 CHA: 23/+6

AC: 23 (+7 Natural, +6 Dex)
Initiative: +10 (+4 Improved, +6 Dex, )
Speed: 40’
DR: 20/+2
SR: 25
FORT: +5 REF: +10 WIL: +14(+16)
Special Abilities: Fast Heal/6, Turn Resistance/+5, Domination, Energy Drain, Blood Drain(1d4 CON), Children of the Night, Create Spawn, Resistance Cold & Electricity/20, Gaseous form, Spider Climb, Alternate form/Bat, Mind Blast, Improved Grab(Tentacles), Extract, Telepathy

Attacks: Tentacles +18/+13 (1d4+6, Energy Drain), Bite +9 (1d4 +6, Blood Drain)

Feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse: Tentacle, Quicken Power, Psionic Focus, Greater Psionic Focus (+4 to DC), Mind Trap

Items: Ring of Counterspells (Heal), Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Rod of Absorption, Gauntles of Ogre Power +2, Ring of Improved Invisibility, Psychoactive Skin “Skin of the Psion”, Third Eye Concentrate

Psionics(Mind Flayer): DC d20+Power Level+Ability Modifier
Powers: Astral Projection/9/Dex, Charm Monster/3/Cha, Detect Thoughts/2/Cha, Levitate/2/Dex, Plane Shift/7/Dex, Suggestion/2/Cha

Psi-Crystal, Resolve +2 Will Saves.
Psionic Combat Modes: All

Psionics(Psion): DC d20+Power Level+Ability Modifier+4 for psychokinetic powers
Power Points: 74(+7 per day)
Powers: 0: Control Shadow*, Detect Psionics, Far Punch Far Hand, Know Direction, My Light, Finger of Fire, Trinket
1: Stomp*, Biocurrent, Identify, Grease
2: Control Air*, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Burning Ray
3: Cone of Sound*, Greater Concussion, Invisibility purge
4: Inertial Barrier*, Telekinesis, Quintessence
5: Psychic Vampire*, Teleport
6: Greater Biocurrent*

Note: Edited thanks to Mustrum. I forgot to mention that the * powers are psycokinetic powers. Normally undead would not get to use these powers, but I did not like this limitation, so I opted to use CHA inplace of CON, similar to the way undead casters do for the concentration skill. As Mustrum pointed out, if this does not float for you, change her to a Telepath

 

[0-hr]

Ouch Ki Ryn - a free grapple check on top of a free grab/hold? Isn't that a bit harsh?

From the SRD

After a successful grab, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check.

They might mean it takes another attack action. They might mean it's free after the intial grab. The interpretation is up to you. In our campaign, we've found that allowing a full round between the attachment and the extraction to be well balanced, so the "attach 4" check is part of the initial grab (a free action) for us.

I'd suggest trying it as a 3-round procedure and see if there is really ever any danger of someone losing their brain.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Since making a grapple check normally requires an attack, lacking some explicit exception being made I'd say it's still an attack. And I don't see any such exception. Because it isn't there.

 

[0-hr]

Since making a grapple check normally requires an attack, lacking some explicit exception being made I'd say it's still an attack. And I don't see any such exception. Because it isn't there.

Yes, a grapple check requires an attack, except when the creature in question has Improved Grab.

IIMPROVED GRAB
If the creature hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or
bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a
grapple as a free action

After a successful grab, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check.

So what do they mean by "grab"? That's not an official term. If they had said "After a successful improved grab and grapple check, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with it's next grapple check." then there would be no question. If they had said "After a successful attack, the mind flayer can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check.", then there would be no question. But they said "grab", which could mean a the hit, or could mean the free grapple check after the hit. Since the former has played out as more balanced than the latter, that's what we go with in my campaign. You are welcome to do it however you want in yours.

I'm not trying to make you see things that aren't there. I'm just trying to make you see the possibility of another interpretation. And that, I can assure you, does exist. This, however, isn't something that I particularily care about so you are welcome to have the last word and condesend all you like.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

On its third round it succeeds another grapple check and the victim is killed.

It doesn't have to succeed a 3rd check. If you begins the round with all 4 tentacles still attached to your head, you're dead and that's it.