Mini Handbook Mass Battle Rules. How Good?

[Mad Mac]

So, having become something of a DDM mini fiend in the last 2 months or so, I finally decided to spring for the Mini Handbook, specifically for the mass battle rules. Now, maybe it's just that I've heard so many vague gripes about these rules that I just had low expectations, but on first skim through, they actually seem pretty solid. You know, little gripes aside, like "Whaa? You want me to have multiple bunches of 20+ identical common mini's, just to get a real game going? Have some mercy on my poor, plastic loving wallet for Grumphs sake!"

Impending Bankruptcy aside, I'm not seeing any big problems at first glance. Does anyone have any experience using these rules? How well do they work in play? I know the book is like ancient history and stuff, but I'm still interested in hearing some opinions on it.

 

[Mad Mac]

Just to clarify, I'm more interested in how the mass battle rules work as a wargame in their own right, as opposed to using to run mass battles in a D&D campaign. (Which would be a ton of work, just for the conversions)

 

[pogre]

The rules work as a mini game, I just think there are so many better options for fantasy miniature battles right now. I would cite Hordes of the Things as but one example of a superior rules set.

 

[JVisgaitis]

They work fine as a wargame, but really that shouldn't be the point of a mass combat system for an RPG. I prefer Warmaster myself, but I really loathe the GW business model lately, so I've pretty much boycotted anything they release and don't really play many of their games anymore.

I still love Mordheim, Blood Bowl, and Space Hulk though, but these are more one shot games then based on the "I have to spend 10 billion dollars and devote my life to this game model."

 

[Delta]

Amazingly, there are no mass battle rules in the book. Even the most stripped-down ruleset therein still uses 1 figure = 1 man, 1" = 5 ft. The most you get is a thin "squad leader" type game.

 

[Mad Mac]

Eh. You can always set the scale so that 1 mini=however many guys you want. The important aspect of "mass battle" rules is to represent the large formations and group tactics that seperate war from skirmishes. The rules seem pretty functional in that regard, although I don't imagine I'll ever have enough mini's to do a good 3,000 point game without seriously fudging things. (Like plunking a couple guys down in a squad box and pretending it's full, or something)

 

[Steel_Wind]

Chapter 6 - Mass Battle - is a usable system for resolving a large conflict during play.

It's not ideal and there are alternatives. But it is not as bad as many of the reviewers would have you believe. It is workable for force about 200-300 a side, max.

Cry Havoc bogs down in simulationist rules to govern such a battle - and is a lot less fun, for example.

Beyond that, you need to look to another rules source.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

My overall impression of the mass combat in Minis Handbook was 'meh'. There are much better - the one I use the most is in Strongholds & Dynasties by Mongoose. A free version of the rules, modified for use with Conan, but easy to convert back, is available from Mongoose here (PDF).

I am also growing fond of the non-miniatures based mass battle resolution system in Heroes of Battle by WotC, rather than bogging down in a miniatures game it allows the heroes to act like, well, heroes. The DM predetermines the most likely outcomes for the battle, and does them up in a flowchart, with opportunites for the heroes' actions to influence the outcome. In a recent example there was no way that my player's side could win the battle, but they could retreat in good order, destroying the pass behind them (if the PCs were able to place the charges), retreat in good order (if the PCs could keep the army from routing (if the PCs commander was killed when an enemy raiding party attacks his honor guard)), retreat in good order while inflicting damage on the enemy's command (if the PCs chose to do this rather than set the charges), or if things went all pear shaped end up in a general route, with the PCs own commander getting killed.

The Auld Grump

 

[airwalkrr]

I've used the MBR several times myself, both on small and large scales. While they are not the best rules for large-scale warfare, they have the distinct advantage of being easily convertable from D&D rules. I have just one warning: do not give the players too much power unless you want them to dominate the battlefield. When converting D&D statistics to a miniatures statistics block, you have to bear in mind that the MB and miniatures game are much lower power than D&D. Look at some of the miniatures and notice how many options they lose in from the D&D game. In most cases they have less than half of their abilities/spells. The PCs will have to be similarly "nerfed" if you want them to be challenged the same. You might find this is an unpopular option with your PCs however.