Minions and hps

[keterys]

Yeah, I think it's awesome to see someone else arrive at the same thing. Means I'm on track at least a little.

I'm going to try it out in my game. I meant to try out the threshold and never did (and honestly I still don't like aspects of the implementation with respect to cleave and scorching burst, powers I think _should_ reliably work against minions) - but I like the vibe from this better. So I'll see what folks think.

I'm pretty sure the cleric will appreciate turn undead doing something to minions, even on a miss

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plane sailing kind of scares me.

I'm a monster! RAWR!

 

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

How about this:

Minions get a DT of 1 HP/Level. That way minions are just as effective at lower levels (which seems to be pretty effective given that most people only have a problem with higher level minions) and minions are tougher at higher levels (which most people seem to want), as well as the fact that AoE spells can still take them out (like they were intended to do). So, in this regard, almost everyone is happy

 

[cbbakke]

Does somebody have a list of the auto damage powers and how much damage they actually do? I leave my books at my buddies house where we game. Since the focus of change seems to be auto damage powers I would like to get a better feel for how much they do.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Don't sent minions after the casters. Wizards, Warlocks, and to a lesser extend Clerics, all get more automatic damage abilities (and items) than any of the martial classes. Use minions where they'll do the most good, against the defenders and martial strikers. Minions tie these characters in place while the real monsters tear apart your casters.

Minions are a tool, just like lurkers, artillery, and brutes. Used correctly, they are amazing. Used poorly, they suck.

 

[Atropos]

Minions are a tool, just like lurkers, artillery, and brutes. Used correctly, they are amazing. Used poorly, they suck.

Indeed, but some would rather change the rules than learn how to use them.

Arguing that minions dying too easily is a flaw in their design is missing the point about minions completely. Minions are meant to die. It's what they're there for. Changing the rules to make minion-killing abilities unreliable is akin to insisting that a skill check MUST fail on a '1', no matter how easy the task.

 

[Regicide]

Indeed, but some would rather change the rules than learn how to use them.

Yes... "die when hit" is SUCH a HARD rule. It'll take FOREVER for us to learn how to use that.

Arguing that minions dying too easily is a flaw in their design is missing the point about minions completely. Minions are meant to die. It's what they're there for. Changing the rules to make minion-killing abilities unreliable is akin to insisting that a skill check MUST fail on a '1', no matter how easy the task.

Actually, changing the minion rules to not suck is more akin to tossing out the completely broken and unuseable skill-challenge system that was in the DMG for something that is actually sensible. Despite how blatently broken it was, there were still people that insisted that because WotC published it, it must not be flawed. If anything minion rules are even more deeply flawed than skill challenges.

 

[keterys]

Indeed, but some would rather change the rules than learn how to use them.

Arguing that minions dying too easily is a flaw in their design is missing the point about minions completely. Minions are meant to die. It's what they're there for. Changing the rules to make minion-killing abilities unreliable is akin to insisting that a skill check MUST fail on a '1', no matter how easy the task.

Would you make the same argument if autodamage abilities ignored minions entirely (if they still required that you hit them to kill them, as was once thought)? Because many of the objections are with autodamage abilities making minions not fun or too easy for the XP amount. And that's from both players and DMs.

Cause I'll agree that some of the complaints are just way overboard from my perspective, but I'd say you're missing the point of the discussion entirely if you think the autodamage complaints are about minions dying. It's a lot more about not seeing a point to having the minions there at all -and wanting to use them-.

At any rate, on the subject of who has autodamage abilities - it's not the sole province of warlocks and wizards. Stormwardens, for instance, can autokill two minions every turn. At-will, no action cost. Fighters have lots of stances that autodamage anyone next to them. Most walls, many zones. Etc.

But, let's say you've got a fighter - wizard - warlock (feytouched) - ranger (stormwarden) - (leader) party... that's 4 minions killed per turn without any effort (and 4 = a full monster's worth of xp... right?), _all_ of them killed with a little effort (teleport minion bouncing and/or winter's wrath and/or frostburn), and a _lot_ of slightly more costly options (that still absolutely rock against everything else you fight, like Rain of Steel or Flaming Sphere) to mop up even more if you're inclined.

 

[Gort]

Verily, I do agree.

I don't really like it. I don't like having to track anything for minions, even bloodied states. I also don't like the idea that auto-damage auras take only two rounds to kill minions. I mean, it's a step in the right direction, but I don't think it goes far enough.

 

[keterys]

Well, the other methods to address auto damage:
1) Minions get to save against autodamage
2) Minions are immune to autodamage
3) Minions gain resist X to autodamage

There are spins on that - for example have #1 only apply if the minion is >= player level and #3 bloody if below or apply to all damage.

There are also different definitions of autodamage - for example, Avernian Eruption gives ongoing damage to all in the area (killing a minion at the start of its turn), Cloud of Daggers autodamages just one square, Winter's Wrath damages an entire area, Armor of Agathys damages every adjacent creature, etc.

Personally I'd suggest against the resistance varying from minion type to minion type. Just set to, say, 5 for Heroic, 10 Paragon, 15 Epic (or whatever).

If you think autodamage killing a minion in two rounds is too fast, I'd suggest just making them immune to most forms.

Whichever of those you use, you may want to add a modifier to Cleave so it still works on minions.