Minions and hps

[Nifft]

This could get even more complex when a new source of temp hp unbloodies the minion so you're flipping the bloodied bit back and forth, as well as increasing (and lowering back, presumably) the DT.

Yeah. Don't want that to happen. IMHO minions can combine nicely with temp HP on a per-encounter basis -- and the temp HP should apply to ALL minions of a given type, or none of them.

On that particular aspect, I don't like the idea that a bloodied minion with a DT of 15 might gain 1 temp hp and gain back its full DT. That's a far greater gain than other types of critters. It also makes something like an aura of 'Allies in the aura gain X temporary hit points' very odd with minions.

It might get better when you realize that 2 HP worth of damage could kill him dead, so long as each HP of damage came from a different source.

When you put 8 minions out, I want their stats to be the same. The players can mark 'em bloodied and take 'em off, no muss no fuss.

Yeah. IMHO one bit of state is plenty per live minion (Bloodied or normal).

DT thought: Brutes +2, Lurkers/Artillery -2. Damage baseline otherwise set so it's very easily pierced by any full damage attack, but an attack without stat added or just stat (ie, 1W or flat Str) not necessarily. Other than Cleave, are there any powers that seem clearly built for dealing with minions (instead of incidental bonus damage) that DT really screws with?

Yep: Flaming Sphere, Rain of Steel and Armor of Agathys.

Aside from powers, there's also the property of the Rod of Reaving, the Pact Blade's property, and the Feytouched teleport bonus.

CHeers, -- N

 

[keterys]

Yep: Flaming Sphere, Rain of Steel and Armor of Agathys.

Aside from powers, there's also the property of the Rod of Reaving, the Pact Blade's property, and the Feytouched teleport bonus.

None of those seem _designed_ for dealing with minions and are fine even in fights with no minions. In fact, I think the rod/blade were designed assuming they didn't work on minions.

 

[Nifft]

None of those seem _designed_ for dealing with minions and are fine even in fights with no minions. In fact, I think the rod/blade were designed assuming they didn't work on minions.

Area effects with low yet guaranteed damage don't seem like they're " _designed_" for use against minions?

I mean, one could argue that all area attacks are for use against minions -- and many people do indeed say that the Controller is in his element when the DM uses minions in a fight.

Seriously, what makes Cleave more minion-focused than Flaming Sphere?

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

Area effects with low yet guaranteed damage don't seem like they're " _designed_" for use against minions?

Rain of Steel and Flaming Sphere aren't what I'd consider a normal area effect, no - and they're _very_ solid damage abilities that do more than enough without considering minions. They're also dailies, not exactly what you're pulling out to deal with minions. They do shine fantastically against elites and solos and such when they get a chance to hit a lot of times, though.

Cleave is an at-will that does a small amount of damage to another target, most usefully killing minions.

Scorching Burst? Yeah, totally good for minions. Rain of Steel? Totally something else. By that line of reasoning any power that does automatic damage at all is designed for handling minions, and that seems backwards.

 

[Gort]

Well, Flaming Sphere and Rain of Steel are massively powerful abilities that are extremely effective against anything from solos down to minions, so while they are great against minions, they're not exactly "designed for use against them".

That said, someone using Rain of Steel or Flaming Sphere in a fight could go through vast quantities of minions - it'd be an interesting experiment to see how many encounter levels worth of minions a fighter using Rain of Steel could go through before being overwhelmed.

 

[Atropos]

Given that your entire line of argument seems to imply

It doesn't, and you bloody well know it. But I can't stop you from sticking your fingers in your ears.

Can you share with us some of the encounters where minions have faced down a high level group in your games and been more than a road bump with an inordinate amount of XP attached? There's a lot of "minions are ___" on both sides, but at least the side that doesn't like the way things are is putting up their experiences.

Forget it. For the second time in as many threads, someone pulled the "fanboi!!" card and didn't get called on it, so I'm out.

If you truly want that discussion, start a new thread on rpg.net and I'll chime in there. This forum is too tolerant of wankery for my taste.

 

[James McMurray]

Forget it. For the second time in as many threads, someone pulled the "fanboi!!" card and didn't get called on it, so I'm out.

If you truly want that discussion, start a new thread on rpg.net and I'll chime in there. This forum is too tolerant of wankery for my taste.

When did I say anything about fanbois? I asked for experiences with minions, preferably at high levels. If you have actual facts, present them. If not, by all means please leave, but try not to fling easily disproven and ludicrous accusations as you do. It makes it harder to take you seriously in other threads.

 

[Victim]

At 15th level, two out of three characters had easy means of mass minion killing. We elected not to use them to their full extent so the third character - my Fighter/Iron Vanguard - could use the remaining minions later on to recover HP and get more temp HP from his lifestealing weapon.

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of their power as high level threats...

However, they were capable of spreading poisoned conditions that one of the other monsters could exploit.

 

[Regicide]

At 15th level, two out of three characters had easy means of mass minion killing. We elected not to use them to their full extent so the third character - my Fighter/Iron Vanguard - could use the remaining minions later on to recover HP and get more temp HP from his lifestealing weapon.

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of their power as high level threats...

No, the minion rules are pretty badly busted, they're not really threats. Is a single minion a meaningful threat that has any chance whatsoever of endangering a party? Not really. By RAW they wouldn't even be a "legitimate target" for powers. Your experience is a perfect example.

 

[Victim]

Yeah. If "Don't kill them all now! We can use them later to recharge our stuff" is a reasonable approach to minions, then they aren't really functioning as effective threats worth 1/4th a normal monster.

It seems like the main use for minions is fuel or otherwise work with the abilities of other monsters at higher levels. Death Giants have powers that are fueled by people dieing in their aura. Skull Lords can res minions as a minor action. The Demonic Acolyte template heals when its allies die. The Pit Fiend turns its allies into bombs. Etc. Minions aren't there to do things later on. They're there so other people can use them to do things - and, at that point, it doesn't matter a whole lot what level the minions are.

Abyssal Ghouls might be the perfect minions since their deaths cause damage. As long as they get to move next to people before they die, they can help.

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Besides changing the specific rules minions, it might be easier to change their XP values. If killing minions becomes increasingly easy compared to normal monsters as levels increase, then the amount of XP a minion is worth compared to the normal monster should also decrease. The only issue here would be a high initiative spike, and dividing up the minions into subgroups for initiative should mostly counteract that problem.

Also, I think most high level minions are poorly designed mechanically. At low levels, minions come with ranged attacks. A few kobold minions spread out over a wide area tossing javelins aren't giving up a whole lot, and can do some damage. Most of the low level monsters carry ranged weapons even if they prefer melee. At high levels, monsters tend to be more specialized in terms of what they do - it's more special abilities, natural attacks, etc, not carrying some weapons - so minions tend to only have melee attacks. That means that they pretty have to bunch up to bring their numbers to bear. More ranged skirmishing/artillery minions at high levels would make them not quite so trivially killed.