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Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

Ninja-to

First Post
On the one hand I think 'give the PC's a chance to wipe out something in one hit' and on the other hand I'm thinking '1hp for a 20th lvl minion... and the bartender in town has like 15?!??!'

Can someone justify to me why I should keep minions to that measely 1hp? In fact, why use minions at all? Why not just replace them with real creature (take away 4 minions add a real one like the DMG says (I believe))?

Before you guys rush in, can anyone tell me in both mechanical combat terms why I should keep them, and *also* how the hell do you explain this in a roleplaying or 'realism' sense? (note that 'realism' is different from 'realistic' and we all know D&D isn't supposed to be 'real' blah blah let's not go there).

*PS, my own DM who's running KotSF has already decided to give minions more than 1hp because 'it makes no sense' but he has almost no clue about the rules at all for 4th edition so his opinion is 'questionable' at this point.
 

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Incendax

First Post
Mechanical Reason: They don't have to have simply 1 HP, but it makes for easy bookkeeping. A Minion is a matter of perspective, and if the monster should be tough for you to defeat then you don't use the Minion mechanics. Ultimately, a Minion is a useful tool in the DM's ToolBox to help them represent certain cinematic scenes or battles that you don't want to drag out too long but still allow for some threat to exist.

Roleplay Reason: Dave Arneson once said that Hit Points are the 'points until you are hit'. They are an abstraction that could mean you are bloody from a dozen fleshwounds, or you have avoided every single blow thrown at you, or any other variation. Only that last blow that brings you below zero is the one that is actually a mortal wound. While your average goblin has 40 points worth of roleplay and cosmetic effects before he goes down, a Minion lacks the ability to 'roll' with the blows, taking a mortal wound the first time he is struck.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
When a legionnaire devil fights a bartender, he doesn't have 1 hitpoint, he's an unstoppable monster.

Minions are a convenience, a way to allow a dm to run many guys with little effort, and a chance for players to really strut their stuff. They are not so that Bobo the clown can kill the legion of the damned.
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
Well generally, I think you should only use minions in specific circumstances, they shouldn't be used to fill-up encounters in my eyes.

Mechanically: They work well for creating balanced encounters against a large group of monsters, while still keeping it challenging. Since their damage and defenses are still level for the PCs.

They also are nice mechanically for circumstances where single-kills are proper, ie: sneaking into a castle and snapping the necks of the guards. Who would be minions.

So essentially they work best mechanically depending on the circumstance and for large-scale battles.

Roleplaying/Realism: A minion can be viewed in a variety of ways in-game. I will simply list a couple ways:

-They are a weaker version of a creature (don't prefer this method).
-They die so quickly because of the PCs being so much more powerful, ie: a level 5 orc soldier at level 5 be a level 20 minion at level 20.
-Luck, fate, chance, etc. in combat. They represent the lucky blow that beheads a orc, while a similar orc manages to only get skimmed by a similar blow.

Just a couple.
 

SweeneyTodd

First Post
The reason that they have specifically 1 hp as opposed to say 1d4 or something is that it keeps the bookkeeping much simpler. A minion is either hit and taken out, or still in play. No paper trail.

If you think it would make sense for a minion to sometimes survive a hit but not usually, the only downside is having to track their HP.

If you're asking why they have a low number of HP at all, as oppose to "1 versus a few", then I think the guys above have that covered.

One of the implications the minion rule has (a lot of the 4e rules, really) is that because the game is used to adjudicate the PC's interactions with the world, the mechanics represent how the world interacts with the PCs. It doesn't represent how NPCs interact with each other, that's not really its aim. If you're not comfortable with that, then it's not the minion rule itself that's bugging you, it's the game's design philosophy.
 

Arakim

First Post
At level 1 I had a group of PC's defend a breach in a city wall against 101 Skeletal Minion.

It looked and felt epic.

Think of it more as minions only having 1/4 the hitpoint of a creature their level. You only have to hit each one once, but there are 4 times as many of them.

The book keeping is simple as well. I just need stats and a dead pile tally to keep track.

Minion should always, ALWAYS, be of the same level as the PC, maybe a level higher or lower. The math breaks down when you try to put in a level 20 minion against a level 10 party.

Use minion for flavor and strategy. Sometimes they are the spice, sometimes they are the meal.

101 minions, oh man that was funny...
 

Ninja-to

First Post
Mechanical Reason: They don't have to have simply 1 HP, but it makes for easy bookkeeping. A Minion is a matter of perspective, and if the monster should be tough for you to defeat then you don't use the Minion mechanics. Ultimately, a Minion is a useful tool in the DM's ToolBox to help them represent certain cinematic scenes or battles that you don't want to drag out too long but still allow for some threat to exist.

Roleplay Reason: Dave Arneson once said that Hit Points are the 'points until you are hit'. They are an abstraction that could mean you are bloody from a dozen fleshwounds, or you have avoided every single blow thrown at you, or any other variation. Only that last blow that brings you below zero is the one that is actually a mortal wound. While your average goblin has 40 points worth of roleplay and cosmetic effects before he goes down, a Minion lacks the ability to 'roll' with the blows, taking a mortal wound the first time he is struck.

No exaggeration, the top two responses are the best I have ever seen on En World! :lol: Nice!
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Mechanic: Defenses represent how hard it is to effect the target. HP is how well the target can stop a killing blow. Minions, for the most part, stink at actively stopping a blow. They mostly rely on numbers, supernatural powers, or equipment.

Roleplay: HP is multiplied by plot impotance. Standard creature gain regular HP. Elites get beat up for a whole paragraph or page and get double HP. Solos are equivalent to a whole party, are a chapter storywise, and get 500% Hp. Minions don't even get introduced individually, barely last a sentence each, and are written off easy. They get 1 hp.
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
You must like problematic topics because there's at least four threads about this one. And that's just what I'm aware of.


Pros:
  • Easy Bookkeeping - you don't have to track a minion's hp, unless he's got temporary hit points. Either he's fine or he's dead / unconscious. Bonus: they do static amounts of damage.
  • Heroic Feel - carving through a ton of guys reinforces that the heroes are bad asses. Players (and DMs) respond to that.
  • Emphasize Facelessness - Minons are the guys that show up in big numbers. They may or may not be really good at this stuff, but when there are this many of them it doesn't really matter.
  • Avoid "Miss" Powers - Nothing makes my evil DM heart brighten like getting to smile when my players tell me "And he takes half damage."
  • Both Worse and Better Than "Real" Foes - The math on minions makes them insanely deadly if they get to use their optimal tactics. Four times as many actions will quickly chip through the heroes' resources. On the other hand, taking them out is pretty easy. "If only there weren't so many, we'd have a chance!"
  • Heroic Skill - Minions emphasize that your fighters actually do stab people in the heart, cut out throats, sever limbs and crush skulls in combat. They add that gritty touch that makes things feel bloody and brutal.
  • Speed Combat Up - Minions are plain faster to run than an equal number of regular foes. Damage resolves faster and they have less to track.
  • Epic Duels - Several times, I've been witness to an epic duel between a PC and a minion. The player couldn't hit and the minion couldn't deal enough damage fast enough to kill the PC. However, the PC was tied up for several rounds by a single minion, making the encounter much more difficult for the party.

Cons:
  • Anti-Climactic - Having an enemy drop in the first hit, or an entire encounter end in the first action, is usually a let-down. Not always, but sometimes.
  • Deadly - Minions are surprisingly deadly. Those epic duels and four times the actions make minions very dangerous.
  • Weak Criticals - Minions always do the same damage. Unless you choose to specifically give minions a weapon that does more damage on a critical hit, their damage is unchanged. This is simple and quick but can feel a bit dissatisfying.
  • Explanations - The biggest problem with minions is that many DMs find them very, very jarring and difficult to explain. It shouldn't be (these are the guys that novel heroes stab in the heart, throat or head every time they hit them). Honestly, it's no harder than explaining why a 18th level character is nearly indestructible when compared to his 1st level self. But there it is.

Ultimately, the explanation falls to the guy running the game. Are the minions simply more of the same, old foes long beaten, or simply guys that you don't want your players to spend a lot of time worrying about?
From an RP stand point, I use minions just like I use everything else. They are characters with their own lives, personalities and ideas. However, in combat they are probably dog meat, not because they aren't competent but because they don't have that narrative spark that lets them survive ridiculous dangers.
Now, there is no reason you can't replace any and all minions with regular monsters (and you got the DMG ratio correct), but you probably shouldn't.

Now, you don't always have to use the minion version of a monster, especially if it's the first time the heroes encounter one of those and you want it to be memorable. Simply take the minion and give it appropriate hp for it's level and probable role (the new DMG is awesome). Make sure to increase it's XP value.

However, when it's "more of the same" for the heroes, or they fought these guys six levels ago, then you probably want to use minions to emphasize the lack of competition. Minions are a great way for 27th level characters to have to worry about Ogres without being worried; making the Ogres level 25 minions makes them useful in the combat without making them more dangerous than a long-conquered threat should be.
 

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