Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Runestar]

I don't see the problem with it at lvl 1 or lvl 30 considering that everyone does less damage in this edition. You get in essence the same feel as previous editions as an epic level archmage unleashing an empowered or maximized fireball to take out the 20 lvl 10 or 20 big bad evil guys the lvl 30 Pcs must face.

My point is exactly that. Everyone does less damage in 4e, the point seems to be to let combat last longer and be less subject to upsets like x4 crits from a scythe or failing your fort save against the finger of death spell by letting combat be more a case of attrition where one side slowly but surely gains dominance, rather than a game of rocket tag where victory really only depends on who wins initiative.

In light of this, do minions having just 1 hp run contrary to this design concept? However I look at it, they seem too flimsy. One bad roll and all go down to a well-placed AoE effect. And they seem to give quite a lot of xp for the relatively little effort it appears to take to kill them.

Or is there some trick to optimizing the use of minions to maximize their use of the xp budget I am just not seeing?

 

[AtomicPope]

Or is there some trick to optimizing the use of minions to maximize their use of the xp budget I am just not seeing?

Yes, there is a trick to minions. As a DM I like using minions because they allow (as someone else pointed out) an epic fight that doesn't take an epic amount of time.

The trick to using minions is to mix them with other monsters. Having a Soldier or Brute flanked with minions is a good strategy. Don't bunch up with other minions. The minions run interference on the Strikers, preventing flanks and charging the ranged strikers, thus increasing the life expectancy of Big Bosses. Many minions have ways to "remain sticky" but not all. I used Decrepit Skeletons to tie up Strikers this way. For their level they have good defenses and survived long enough to allow my Brutes and Artillery to be deadly. When the Big Baddies start hitting consistently because of Combat Advantage the Minions have payed for themselves.

Minions also benefit from Leader and Controllers. Many Leaders allow allies to shift or move for free. Minions improve the quality of actions taken by important monsters through the denial of PC actions. The minion is a "positioning" monster, like pawns. Their greatest strength is defensive. They give flanks, block PC movement, they're the shock troops (this is all from the MM). Controllers can pull or push PC's but when you don't have enough monsters to tie that PC up, what good does it do? Minions are the tar pit. They improve the battlefield control of other monsters.

So basically, play minions as pawns. They're sacrificial but not unimportant. They allow for the creation of a defensive and offensive network to mire your opponent's actions, like pawns. Trap hard, single attack hitters in a minion tar pit and prevent their movement, save the king. Use the minions to divide the party and isolate weaker PC's for elimination. Finally, use the minions because it gives Wizards something to kill

 

[Noinarap]

My point is exactly that. Everyone does less damage in 4e, the point seems to be to let combat last longer and be less subject to upsets like x4 crits from a scythe or failing your fort save against the finger of death spell by letting combat be more a case of attrition where one side slowly but surely gains dominance, rather than a game of rocket tag where victory really only depends on who wins initiative.

In light of this, do minions having just 1 hp run contrary to this design concept? However I look at it, they seem too flimsy. One bad roll and all go down to a well-placed AoE effect. And they seem to give quite a lot of xp for the relatively little effort it appears to take to kill them.

Or is there some trick to optimizing the use of minions to maximize their use of the xp budget I am just not seeing?

I've noticed that clustering monsters together (minions or otherwise) is a great way to make the wizard in your group look like a god. If the minions cluster, they die. The trick is to position enemies far enough apart to discourage AoE, but still close enough that they can charge to each other's assistance. You probably don't want more than one monster's worth of minions in most fights, since large numbers will force them to cluster.

 

[wedgeski]

As a matter of order, minions do not have 1 hit point... they are killed by any successful attack. The difference is more than just semantic, especially in discussions like this.

 

[CountPopeula]

Or is there some trick to optimizing the use of minions to maximize their use of the xp budget I am just not seeing?

Several.

The first trick is to spread them out. Consider them weak to AoE spells. So try not to get them hit with AoEs. If the players have to use an attack that targets one or two minions, it's costing them turns.

Then use them to flank with other minions or non-minions. Sure, the minion seems useless, but when he grants combat advantage to a solo... well...

And it does take quite a bit of effort to kill a minion. Even if you figure one attack to take out each minion, that's four attacks to get the XP equivalent of a regular monster. In reality, it's more like 8. Plus they don't take damage from "even on miss" abilities.

But here's a question. Have you ever, you know, used them in play? Or are you objecting to them on their face? Not trying to be a jerk, just saying, try them in play, a lot of things work different on the table than they do on the page.

 

[Runestar]

I did try the sample DMG adventure (sadly my only foray in 4e to date, due to lack of time). The few minions that got featured went down fast. In the 1st encounter for instance, 2 went down to the fighter via cleave, the other 2 from the wizard's thunderwave. It did make me a little alarmed, as if minions exist for no other purpose but to die like flies (which suggests that the amount they can contribute to the enemy effectiveness meaningfully is very ... how do I put it - volatile?).

 

[Celtavian]

re

My point is exactly that. Everyone does less damage in 4e, the point seems to be to let combat last longer and be less subject to upsets like x4 crits from a scythe or failing your fort save against the finger of death spell by letting combat be more a case of attrition where one side slowly but surely gains dominance, rather than a game of rocket tag where victory really only depends on who wins initiative.

In light of this, do minions having just 1 hp run contrary to this design concept? However I look at it, they seem too flimsy. One bad roll and all go down to a well-placed AoE effect. And they seem to give quite a lot of xp for the relatively little effort it appears to take to kill them.

Or is there some trick to optimizing the use of minions to maximize their use of the xp budget I am just not seeing?

One concern I do have with minions only having 1 hp is that a Defender or any class for that matter can simply call for an AoE on their location. For example, I did a Thunderwave on a group of minions with my allies close. It didn't matter. The damage was not going to kill them.

So it is kind of hokey that you can call for an Aoe Attack right on your location at lvl 30 from a lvl 30 mage and it is a nuisance attack that kills a ton of minions and but barely harms you or your comrades. That makes minion single target hit points very weak.

I just kind of let this go though. There is no perfect system. I feel the minion system balances putting a ton of weaklings on the board.

For example, when I was going through City of the Spider Queen, the lvl 4 and 6 guards in the drow City near the surface died in one round to a firebal or cleaving fighter. They rarely were able to hit any of the characters. And they were just a nuisance to kill that took up time and resources.

Minions are the same now save that you no longer need to roll a ton of saves for twenty minions and keep track of hit points for twenty creatures that are going to die and do nothing.

On top of that, the minions can usuallly attack much better than a lvl 4 Fighter minion equivalent from previous editions of DnD.

So if you want a 3.5 analogue to a 4th edition minion, think of all those lvl 4 Fighters tossed into temples and humanoid dungeons that were pretty much there to die, but you have to write down their hit points just in case they got lucky from a low PC damage roll or a made save.

4th edition encounters toss in a few minions, a few tougher enemies, and one very tough enemy. They mix it up like old editions. They just don't make useless no xp lvl 6 Fighters as guards in dungeons made for lvl 10 people that do nothing but create a stat keeping annoyance for the DM.

I hated getting to high level and having to fight stupid low level guards taht didn't even give xp but wasted my time. At least a minion gives a little xp so I don't feel like I'm wasting my time.

 

[Runestar]

For example, when I was going through City of the Spider Queen, the lvl 4 and 6 guards in the drow City near the surface died in one round to a firebal or cleaving fighter. They rarely were able to hit any of the characters. And they were just a nuisance to kill that took up time and resources.

That point is not without merit. I countered this via generous application of buffs (for instance, in a side-trek involving a drider and 6 very young white dragons vs a 10th lv party, I had the drider buff them all with mage armour, resist energy, a scroll of mass bull's str and topped it off with haste, as well as making judicious use of flanking and charging to bring their to-hit values up to a respectable lv.

Though looking back, I wonder if it may all have been just an exercise in futility.

 

[Goumindong]

Another Point of View: Does the minion know it's a minion?

Possible Encounter: 1 Minion tax gatherer, and 4 Brute mercenaries.
The Minion is the one in charge here. He certainly doesn't regard himself as a minion, as he has the backup of the 4 Brutes. Plus, as a villain he has the potential to make our PC's lives miserable.



Sadly, yes. D&D is a roleplaying game, right?

What do you mean "Sadly, yes"

NPC's do not need to roll when attacking NPC's. This is a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Whatever happens is whatever is thematically appropriate. If you want the goblin to pick up the barkeep and move him about then that happens. Why? Because the DM said so. You only roll when determining player actions or actions against players because there needs to be some mechanic to determine whether or not its a success(because typically the DM and player will disagree on whether or not it should be). There can be no disagreement between the DM and the DM regarding what should happen when an NPC attacks an NPC.

This means you can have bar fights that are actually fun(I.E. the players take damage) without having to pretend that for some reason all the people in the bar are somehow level 8 fighters. You just stat them out as a minion really fast[a quick approximation would be one special attack, flat damage rate of something that seems reasonable like 5+1/2 level. a base attack of friendly AC -9, and base defense of friendly attack +10]. Bam, you just statted out a bar fight that might be interesting.

The point is that you are heroes. And there are some enemies that heroes just chop through in one good hit. Then there are some enemies that this does not happen to. The enemies that the Heroes chop through, the fodder, are the minions. They are statted that way because its thematically appropriate for villains to have lackeys to do their bidding. Typically lots of lackeys to do their bidding. These lackeys need to both be an interesting challenge(not too hard and not too easy), not take forever to kill, but also be numerous enough to make it feel like you are taking out the villains lackeys. Why? Because its dumb when it takes more time to get through random villain 32 than it does when getting through the villains right hand man or the villain himself. And its dumb when a villain can only rustle up a hand full of lackeys. And its dumb when a villains lackeys wipe the floor with you when you would have easily taken on the Villain himself.

Ergo, you have 1 HP monsters with reasonable attack, defense, and flat damage.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I did try the sample DMG adventure (sadly my only foray in 4e to date, due to lack of time). The few minions that got featured went down fast. In the 1st encounter for instance, 2 went down to the fighter via cleave, the other 2 from the wizard's thunderwave. It did make me a little alarmed, as if minions exist for no other purpose but to die like flies (which suggests that the amount they can contribute to the enemy effectiveness meaningfully is very ... how do I put it - volatile?).

Did you notice how well your PCs had to roll to do that?

I did when I ran that adventure. Mostly because my PCs generally took two or three attacks per minion.

Those epic minion duels I mentioned earlier are no joke. The warlock I've seen engaged in two of them got hurt fighting those minions. Worse, the entire party was lacking his damage output. And he wasn't rolling really bad, just 6 to 10. But it wasn't enough to hit, so that minion ties up one of our strikers for four rounds, which is about the most you could expect from a brute.

Don't get me wrong, minions are there to die. Even more than most monsters, they are meant to get killed. However, they aren't there just to die. They are there to provide flanking, bull rushing, opportunity attacks, and all the other benefits of having the party heavily outnumbered. Combined with a couple of non-minions, you can get some very, very, very dangerous tactics going.

Sure, their contribution is variable. So is the contribution of non-minions. Some days the dice hate your players, other times the dice hate your monsters. C'est la vie.
If you read that Tarrasque play test that was around here, in some seven rounds Big T got to attack once. Once, in seven rounds of combat, because he spent most of it stunned due to bad rolls on his saves (and clever ability use by the players). It can happen with every single monster.