Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Goumindong]

I'd say that if the players do hire a bunch of lesser wizards to help them out in a dungeon, then the wizards become minions too (and since monsters lose most of their powers when they convert to minion status, the wizards would too and would just have basic ranged attacks).

They would also be NPCs, and because of such would be fully under DM control and their actions would be handled by DM fiat more or less.

 

[Victoly]

Personally I like to think of minions - from a design perspective - as a single monster that takes four hits to kill, gets four attacks per round, and occupies four different squares on the board. Just my two cents worth.

 

[FadedC]

Why have rules if you're just going to ignore them? Why even bother with the dice, and classes, and powers?

I'd argue that you can have the "feel" of minions and ditch about 95% of the absurdity by just having minions have about 10% of the hit points of their non-minion counterparts. It's still a little sketchy, but it's significantly less sketchy than all minions having 1 hp.

If you have to change all the rules for everything else just to make the minion rules "fit," then perhaps it's the minion rule that needs fixing.

In their article on minions they actually discussed doing the 10% hp thing (or something similar). They found that the problem was then the minion sometimes survived a hit and you'd have to keep track of their hit poitns individually. This defeated their whole purpose and there just wasn't any beneifit to it.

As for the rules, my understanding of the rules....or at least the DMing guidlines is that minions only exist when they are encountered by players with a similar level as a minion. We don't worry how lvl 28 minions interact with lvl 1 pc wizards, because lvl 1 pc wizards are never supposed to interact with lvl 28 minions. And if the players somehow manage to hire a wizard or 2 to help them, the DM chooses their stats (which are unlikely to be PC stats).

 

[DandD]

Except that it's already been stated that players are supposed to know which monsters are minions.

Exactly. The players. Now you understand. And I'm sure that you know the difference between the players, and their characters.

Nice straw man. Your argument might make sense if I was actually making some sort of absurd munchkiny argument, like "the rules never mention anything about gravity, therefore it doesn't exist."

It's totally cool of you to act as if you hadn't see the intent of my message, critisizing you for using meta-game knowledge. But hey, if that doesn't bother you, no problem.

Instead I'm just using one, level 1 at-will power as it is intended to be used. I'm not abusing anything at all. Nothing I'm arguing is opposed to the intention of the rules in any way.

Like I said, if you can't see what I'm really saying, then don't bother with it.

Except that the highest level minion, the level 26 Lich Vestige, can't even kill a level 1 wizard in one hit. It can do 15 necrotic damage with Shadow Ray, and it will do 5 necrotic damage if the wizard is within 2 squares. That's 20 damage; a wizard with any sort of above average Con will survive that.

And the NPC-wizard is just that: A NPC who dies at the whim of the gamemaster, if it suits him, because he's not the game character of any other player.

Why have rules if you're just going to ignore them? Why even bother with the dice, and classes, and powers?

Why bother intentionally misreading the rules like you do? You absolutely know that minions aren't meant to be used in such cases, and that this game is for player characters to bash monsters with their own rules.

I'd argue that you can have the "feel" of minions and ditch about 95% of the absurdity by just having minions have about 10% of the hit points of their non-minion counterparts. It's still a little sketchy, but it's significantly less sketchy than all minions having 1 hp.

You can do it if you want, as long as you're happy with the additional paperwork. Meanwhile, everybody else who uses minions correctly will have fun with them.

Perhaps 4e doesn't support simulationism at all. I'd argue that 3.5e does a decent job of simulationism.

It does a very bad one, leading the specific rules dealing with it to be ridiculized many times in "Order of the Stick".

Then I would argue that switching from 3.5e to 4e results in a net decrease in gaming experience.

Seeing as many others on the ENWorld Message boards have already stated how much more they like D&D 4th edition, this claim only is true for a minority.

But that strays away from my main point, which can be summarized as 1 HP minions are unnecessary and silly.

Then don't use them, and use normal monsters with far more hitpoints that you have to keep track of, while adjusting the AC, attack bonus, and defenses for your non-minions.

If you have to change all the rules for everything else just to make the minion rules "fit," then perhaps it's the minion rule that needs fixing.

Or perhaps you can't do it. Other gamemasters can use them in the correct way, and have fun with it. And their players have fun with it.

Look up Mourn's post too, while you're at it.

 

[GoLu]

Instead I'm just using one, level 1 at-will power as it is intended to be used. I'm not abusing anything at all. Nothing I'm arguing is opposed to the intention of the rules in any way.

I doubt hiring a pack of first level wizards to follow you around is "as it is intended to be used." Especially with the DMG indicating that people with PC classes are rare and special and definately not the norm.

Besides, they would just get eaten by the first non-minions to cross your path.

Perhaps 4e doesn't support simulationism at all. I'd argue that 3.5e does a decent job of simulationism. Then I would argue that switching from 3.5e to 4e results in a net decrease in gaming experience. But that strays away from my main point, which can be summarized as 1 HP minions are unnecessary and silly.

Are you correlating simulationism with gaming experience?

 

[Regicide]

Because the adventurers don't know if those monsters are minions. Only the players know that. And your characters only know this too if you metagame and can't separate character-knowledge from player-knowledge.

The characters would have to be intergalactically stupid to not be able to figure out after their billionth fight that they pretty often have a large groups of opponents who consistently die at the drop of a hat. Minions are a fact of life for the 4E character, it makes perfect sense that they'll exploit it.

"Oh look, we're outnumbered again, the sensible thing would be to run."
"Nah, thats why we brought the wizard alone."
"Foosh."
"Oh yeah, just like every other fight. Now it's 5 on 3, CHARGE!"

 

[DandD]

The characters would have to be intergalactically stupid to not be able to figure out after their billionth fight that they pretty often have a large groups of opponents who consistently die at the drop of a hat. Minions are a fact of life for the 4E character, it makes perfect sense that they'll exploit it.

Once more, somebody who thinks that D&D 4th edition tries to fall into the same simulationist-hole that D&D 3.X headed to.

Gesh, who else hasn't understood that D&D 4th edition rules have nothing to do with simulationism at all?
Is anybody else trying to purposefully misinterpret the rules and then complain about them?

"Oh look, we're outnumbered again, the sensible thing would be to run."
"Nah, thats why we brought the wizard alone."
"Foosh."
"Oh yeah, just like every other fight. Now it's 5 on 3, CHARGE!"

What? Do you mean "alone" or "along"?

 

[Syrsuro]

The characters would have to be intergalactically stupid to not be able to figure out after their billionth fight that they pretty often have a large groups of opponents who consistently die at the drop of a hat. Minions are a fact of life for the 4E character, it makes perfect sense that they'll exploit it.

"Oh look, we're outnumbered again, the sensible thing would be to run."
"Nah, thats why we brought the wizard alone."
"Foosh."
"Oh yeah, just like every other fight. Now it's 5 on 3, CHARGE!"

And that is part of my problem with them. Players are well aware when they are fighting a group of minions and will deal with them accordingly.

Especially if they have a dragonborn (esp. with enlarged breath) who can just stand up and puff many of them out of existance (and even if they don't, wizards with scorching burst can get clear them almost as fast).

In other words, my major objection is that they just die too quickly. Sure - they should die fast, but not so fast as to be irrelevant. When a dozen minions charge the party and are all dead before they get a chance to strike (barring ambushes and the like - and every encounter can't be a minion ambush) -- they are not improving the game, they are detracting. Players killing minions before they can even get into position to act is no more heroic then an adult picking on gradeschoolers.

Which is why I am leaning towards a small change (essentially minions occasionally are blooded rather than being killed by attacks, giving them a chance to act), as suggested here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=236228

Carl

 

[Celtavian]

re

HP in D&D has long since been explained as an abstraction. Yet there was always something more definite in damage it seemed. A critical hit was a massive blow, or a fireball that did 50 damage was laying waste on a grand scale, regardless of how enemies abstracted their health. Players had a way to judge that which felt solid.

Now in 4e, Minions cause damage to be an equal abstraction. Especially dealing with Minions at high level. It is entirely understandable that a 20th level character could one-shot a high level minion, because he is putting out just that much damage. When the Fighter smacks one down for 20 damage the mechanic seems entirely satisfying and fine. Yet when the wizard uses his staff to take an opportunity attack on one, and nicks him for 3 damage and the Angel of Valor Veteran (level 16) collapses at that deathblow, it can be a little more head-scratching.

But there is not much to be done for it. It adds something very useful in the DM's toolbox, and they can be fun for players. But it should not be lost that the mechanic was somewhat indebted to easy bookkeeping more than any other concern.

I agree. The new minion rule creates some headscratching now that the wizard essentially attacks as well as the melees with his weapon. So he could go on a melee beatdown spree, which is kind of not cool to imagine. Your two-handed sword wielding fighter wandering about hacking down minions is believable, the robe wearing wizard doing the same is one of those images that makes you laugh.

But most players won't play that way. So hopefully won't come up too often.

 

[amysrevenge]

When a dozen minions charge the party and are all dead before they get a chance to strike (barring ambushes and the like - and every encounter can't be a minion ambush) -- they are not improving the game, they are detracting.

If the PC with the Area attack is getting a dozen hits out of a dozen attack rolls, either he's using loaded dice, or the encounter was not built properly.