Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Lurker37]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a housecat doing one hit point of damage. Cat scratches aren't fatal.

When's the last time someone was killed by a clowder of cats? Is that crazy lady with two dozen cats in her house now a deadly force?

If you can't imagine something killing a man, then it shouldn't do hit point damage.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Q: If a minion is killed by a house cat in the woods with no one else around, does any one care? (but the house cat )

But how can a housecat kill anything? It does 1d4-4 = 0 damage with a successful hit.

 

[Henry]

But how can a housecat kill anything? It does 1d4-4 = 0 damage with a successful hit.

If you're talking 3e, that housecat does at least 1 point of damage, by the rules (a successful attack does at least 1 damage). If 4e, a housecat doesn't even have stats normally, so they don't do any damage unless the DM says so.

I just think the 4Ed Minions mechanic does a poor job of simulating this because, as I said, 1 successful hit from a PC and they're done...which not only doesn't comport with the RW, it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

If you're talking written fiction, there's Song of Roland, where he's cleaving Saracens are getting cleaved in two left and right, or Conan hewing through lesser men by the dozen in some of his earliest tales (early as in "young conan" not "first stories Howard wrote'").

If we're looking at movies, there's the Lord of the Rings, where literally DOZENS of "one-shot kills" are portrayed. And in TV, good old Buffy and Angel might stake a minion-seeming vamp roughly once an episode.

As for the whole, "50 cent and Phines Gage" analogy - they don't have to be PCs to not die in one hit; all told, "regular monsters" are faced at least as often as minions are. I'd say look at it deductively rather than inductively; because minions can have just as many skills, defenses, and close to the same attack bonus as non-minons, then the real test is: if they died in one hit, then they were a minion. If they didn't, then they weren't.

Alternately, a DM who doesn't like minions can either substitute them out for a non-minion at a 4-to-1 ratio, or make them non-minions pretty easily. Using the chart on page 184, convert them to Brutes, as that seems to be the closest category in terms of defenses, attacks, etc. to minions. Give them the brute's hit points, a normal or high damage expression, divide the number of them by 1/4th, and you're in business. All the other stats are close enough for government work, and those two steps are all that's needed.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Now keep in mind, if you take the approach that 'minions are only minions when interacting with the PC's' then ok, you could almost follow that line of reasoning and get away with it but you'd have to make exceptions to this rule, and exactly how are you supposed to deal with it if you take that line? For example, in the brambles above, do you kill them off? Do you say the brambles just don't do any damage at all? If so, why? Isn't it now unfair that the PC's themselves would take damage walking through but the minions don't?

Question... Where did you come up with the stats for the brambles? Are they in the DMG or something, or did you make them up? Just curious...

If you (as a DM) made up the "stats" for the brambles, then you (as DM) can make up a rule stating that they do not deal damage to minions.

The way I would handle it, and rule it, is that the brambles sure do scratch up the NPC townsfolk and the demon minions, but not enough to have an actual mechanical detriment (meaning, they do not deal real damage). Since we all agree that HPs are an abstraction, it is perfectly reasonable to discribe someone being hit, bruised, scarred or bleeding WITHOUT taking off hit points, just as it would be reasonable to describe a glancing blow, dodging out of the way of a fireball or fatiguing during battle (aka being hit by an attack that deals hp damage, but not enough to kill you) as you mark off hit points.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I don't.

I just think the 4Ed Minions mechanic does a poor job of simulating this because, as I said, 1 successful hit from a PC and they're done...

That is pretty much the point of minions though...

which not only doesn't comport with the RW, it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

Why would you try to compare the mechanics of a game system with that of the real world?

Others have already listed multiple sources of fantasy where heroes (ie PCs) take out multiple opponents in one hit (ie Minions), so I don't think this part of your arguement is very concrete...

 

[Obryn]

I don't.

Then why are you asking about real-world examples of people who have survived wounds?

-O

 

[robertliguori]

I think how minions interact with the world is different with how they interact with PCs. Having 1 HP is an abstraction (as you noted) and, importantly, an abastrction that assumes the minion is in combat with PCs of a relevant level. This abstraction (and indeed game mechanics in general) are not required to adjudicate events outside the spotlight of the game.

When not part of an encounter minions can go about their lives without fear of dying from mosquito bites. They can have battles with their neighbours and hobble into the infirmary afterwards with a dagger in the thigh and arrow in the shoulder. Now if their neighbours were PCs then either the arrow or the dagger would have slain the creature (such is their fate when encountering heroes). In short, minions interact with the world in a way that you, the DM, dictate to achieve whatever end you desire, be that 'realism', conistency, common-sense, plot or whatever tickles your fancy.

If we go down that route, why have stats for anything ever? The DM can always handwave away the printed rules; having situations in which the DM needs to do so on account of the printed rules being nonsensical indicates bad rules.

Similarly they could get through the damaging terrain (ouch, ouch) to later be part of the encounter (with deep scratches and their single solitary HP).

What happens when the PCs then attempt to push the monsters into the terrain as part of the combat encounter? Do we get Schrodinger's Minions, who interact with the game world in totally different ways whether or not they are being observed, and in such a way that this difference in behavior can also be observed?

HPs represent a lot of things: mass, toughness but also luck and battle experience. It is the fate of a minion to receive a mighty blow in combat from a worthy opponent, this does not mean they are made of tissue paper (refer to a Legion Devil's Fort save)... it means the PCs can easily dispatch these lesser beings with relative ease.

But fate has nothing to do with it; if that worthy opponent has a level 1 wizard along for the ride, and that legion devil squares off one-on-one with that wizard, that devil will die.

It is possible to set up anomalous situations (e.g. pet cats vs high level minion) with minions, but these can be simply avoided. DnD simulates heroic fiction, which centres on the heroes and their deeds... so omitting the housecat's attacks from the resolution of combat will solve the rules anomaly while maintain the spirit of the game.

Just to check, then; it is an anomalous situation for non-appropriately-leveled characters to face legion devils. This means that minions have no existence with regards to the PCs other than level-appropriate challenges, and clever PCs will stage commando raids on hell, find it either deserted or populated only by small groups of legion devils, loot and massacre, then escape, having been strengthened from the experience. You are saying that it is inconceivable (or at least, not worth considering in the rules) that a character not an appropriately-leveled-PC will interact with the legion devils, despite the known and documented propensity for PCs to not go where and do what is expected.


My beef with minions is that they're solving the wrong problem. The hordes of orcs don't go down at a poor dagger-slash from everyone; they do so at the hands of a hero. Therefore, heroes expected to cleave through hordes of orcs should do minimum damage enough to guarantee a kill; if you instead change things so that the orcs are soap-bubbles, you should expect the actors in the world to treat them accordingly.

 

[FourthBear]

But fate has nothing to do with it; if that worthy opponent has a level 1 wizard along for the ride, and that legion devil squares off one-on-one with that wizard, that devil will die.

Only if that level 1 wizard rolls a 20. Remember, minions have level appropriate defenses, so only through the grace of "always hits on a 20" will an opponent much lower level manage to hit a minion. Note that on the other side, minions also have level appropriate attack bonuses, so the minions (and every other higher level opponents in the fight) will always hitting our hapless level 1 wizard with every attempt. Our wizard also probably be going dead last in every initiative order as well, since minions also get the same initiative bonus as all opponents.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if a level one wizard is in a high level combat, gets into melee and rolls a 20, why not let him kill the legion devil in a fluke? He's going to be dead either in this combat or another very soon.

 

[AllisterH]

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if a level one wizard is in a high level combat, gets into melee and rolls a 20, why not let him kill the legion devil in a fluke? He's going to be dead either in this combat or another very soon.

Strange...is this not how Smaug actually was defeated? THe one lucky shot?

Seriously, minion rules are one of the best features of 4E as it allows D&D to actually simulate those scenes from novels that supposedly are the basis of D&D. Throw in healing surges/second wind and you're easily duplicating the feel of a Conan novel for example.

I find it somewhat ironic that the 4E gamist version of D&D actually simulates the nfluences of D&D better than the more "simulationist" earlier versions.

re: Real life and minions
Um, seriously, when a person gets hit by a sword, GENERALLY, they die. Sure, there are cases of people getting stabbed by a sword and not dying but that is NOT the average response.

 

[AllisterH]

My beef with minions is that they're solving the wrong problem. The hordes of orcs don't go down at a poor dagger-slash from everyone; they do so at the hands of a hero. Therefore, heroes expected to cleave through hordes of orcs should do minimum damage enough to guarantee a kill; if you instead change things so that the orcs are soap-bubbles, you should expect the actors in the world to treat them accordingly.

But they DON"T. Random Joe Blow at1st level isn't downing Legionnaire devils at all unless he gets extremely unlucky.

Seriously, it is easier to simple change the rules so that a natural 20 isn't an automatic hit. Right there, that simple change doesn't affect the PCs in any way but solves most of the issues.