Mirrors, powers and line of sight

[mstanton]

Asking for opinions/direction to prev posts about 4e line of sight rule...

Could a PC use angled mirrors to target a creature or space around corners or obstacles for powers that require line of sight?

Also, similar question: Can gaze attacks be made "through" (or "off") mirrors?

(A player pitched the idea of setting up an ambush using angled mirrors, or an escape route for teleport powers needing need LOS. On the one hand I'd credit the creativity, and the "Mirror Crystal" terrain in DMG1 suggests possible presidence, but I'd think some sort of skill challenge or attack penalty ought to apply to get the mirrors "just right" for this trick. On the other hand, part of me goes "no, that's just silly" since it feels like a way to break the rules as written...)

 

[radja]

setting up mirrors to create LoS for a teleport: yes.
creative use, setup (a skill challenge as you suggest) is required so it's very situational. I'd allow it if only just for coolness. for an attack I wouldn't allow it, since you need line of effect to target something.

using mirrors to get around gaze attacks is quite common in literature, so I would not allow it. also see my reasoning on line of effect above. I would also apply some penalties to a character viewing only through a mirror: all targets have concealment, and you grant combat advantage.

just how I would handle it, feel free to disagree.

 

[mstanton]

Good ideas. Lacking logical a skill challenge to do this, I might make the PC roll a "ranged attack" instead of a regular skill challenge, on par with banking shots in billards. First mirror to "bounce" is AC 15, second mirror is AC 20, third AC 25, etc. -- and "landing" or effecting the square where the first failure is made or, is all "bounces" work, resolve the power as normal.

 

[Goumindong]

Short answer is

Teleport "yes, you have line of sight"

Gaze attacks "No, you need line of effect, which is blocked by the walls"

 

[Ryujin]

Short answer is

Teleport "yes, you have line of sight"

Gaze attacks "No, you need line of effect, which is blocked by the walls"

Which would be in line with Greek mythology (Perseus slaying Medusa by looking in a reflective shield).

 

[mstanton]

Which would be in line with Greek mythology

Yeah, maybe, but 4e seems to put "game balance" way ahead of "simulation" under RAW.

I've already warned the "Clash Of The Titans"-loving players that a medusa's gaze attack power ends when she is killed. I'm rejecting the old "medusa-head-on-a-10-foot-pole" trick of opening a door, sticking in the head-pole contraption and waving it around to petrify anyone in the room... In a word, "NO."

In terms of "line of sight" and either open portals or scrying devices, any existing rules discussed previously?

 

[frankthedm]

sorta related

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/197654-do-illusions-show-up-mirrors.html

 

[interwyrm]

On the one hand I'd credit the creativity, and the "Mirror Crystal" terrain in DMG1 suggests possible presidence

The word you are looking for is "precedent".

I've already warned the "Clash Of The Titans"-loving players that a medusa's gaze attack power ends when she is killed.

I think this would be fine for a temporary artifact sort of thing.

 

[DracoSuave]

There are no rules-as-written for mirrors.

However, what I'd suggest is that mirrors give you one line-of-sight for the purposes of concealment. It'll let you see a monster, and might negate total concealment, but there's no way you'll be able to counter normal concealment. Fact is, that mirror doesn't make that creature any less hard to aim at, only to find in the first place.

So, by above, yes, teleports would be fine through it, but it wouldn't let you shoot through walls.

Then, an advanced version of it, the mystic mirror, perhaps it might be made of argentum, or mithral, or orichalcum, or Insert MacGuffiny Supermetal Here... or maybe it is ensorcelled... but it grants Line of Effect as well as Line of Sight, thus allowing neat-o ricochet tricks with fireballs, arrows, and the like. Still doesn't completely negate cover, but it'd negate total cover for sure.

So, using this, could you bounce attacks off mirrors? Well, depends on the mirror, don't it?

(A player pitched the idea of setting up an ambush using angled mirrors, or an escape route for teleport powers needing need LOS. On the one hand I'd credit the creativity, and the "Mirror Crystal" terrain in DMG1 suggests possible presidence, but I'd think some sort of skill challenge or attack penalty ought to apply to get the mirrors "just right" for this trick. On the other hand, part of me goes "no, that's just silly" since it feels like a way to break the rules as written...)

It's not breaking the rules, because the rules don't exist for this. It's asking the DM 'Can I try to do something awesome?' and the DM having to either say 'Yes, you can try' or 'No, you cannot.'

RAW, The DM is encouraged to give the man a chance to try to awesome, within reason.