Missing Wizardesque classes

[Hatmatter]

I have really enjoyed the attention to design and balance the 4th edition creators have come up with for the different classes. Of course, this has meant that the classes that have a more specific role have had the options they possesed in previous editions be limited. The wizard is the classic example. I am hoping that WoC is going to make those options available later in the guise of new classes. The shadow-powered Necromancer has been mentioned as a likely bearer of early edition wizard undead-related spells. Some think the Illusionist will be a shadow-powered class or be build-able through new options in the Arcane Powers Handbook. However, it is obvious WoC has restricted the role of summoning, conjuring, and charming spells. Given that the Arcane Powers Handbook is supposed to only include options for the wizard, warlock, sorceror, spellmage, and bard, I am hoping that some of the early edition spells and powers return in the guise of classes with non-Arcane powers. Here are some posibilities. What do y'all think?

Conjuring spells and alteration spells might be perfect for Elemental-powered classes. Elementalists may be able to conjure elementals or elemental-related creatures from the earth/air/fire/etc. Of course, they should be able to alter or transmute one material into another.

Summoning spells might work really well with Primal-powered classes. I'm thinking of a shaman or druid type being able to summon creatures from the wild.

Enchantment/charm spells...will they be turned into psionic powers? If not, perhaps they will appear with the bard, I hope they do not permanently disappear from D&D.

Abjurations spells seem to be covered by the Warlock. Just as invocation/evocation are now represented by the wizard's spells.

 

[Sangfric Balis]

I hope they don't relegate all the charm spells to psionic powers! There should be a charmer class.

You're right though. They've kept so many spells out of 4th ed. so far, one must hope that they are saving them for yet-to-be revealed classes.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Conjuring spells and alteration spells might be perfect for Elemental-powered classes. Elementalists may be able to conjure elementals or elemental-related creatures from the earth/air/fire/etc. Of course, they should be able to alter or transmute one material into another.
Summoning spells might work really well with Primal-powered classes. I'm thinking of a shaman or druid type being able to summon creatures from the wild.

Alteration/Transmutation was always a crock - there were just so many spells that fell into the category. Other schools were just as bad: conjure, summon, invoke and evoke can all be used to mean exactly the same thing! Most of the difference between these schools was merely in how you described an effect - and you're allowed to describe effects however you want now: so there's no problem in deciding that your character is a transmuter and making every power a transmutation-flavoured power.

Summoning may or may not be coming soon - I think it probably depends on how many issues they have with the bag of tricks mechanics.

Enchantment/charm spells...will they be turned into psionic powers? If not, perhaps they will appear with the bard, I hope they do not permanently disappear from D&D.

Maybe you want to read some of the warlock and wizard powers some more. Confusion allows you to dictate a monsters actions for a round, while curse of the dark delirium lets you do so on an ongoing basis. There's a bunch of other spells that direct an attack for a target or otherwise control them.
If you're really desperate for more, there's even some rogue attacks that are charm-like (fool's opportunity for instance). You could always re-task some of those as wizard powers.
I seriously expect (and hope that) we'll see never the charm spell as it used to be ever again. Lets face it, it was always just far too good, and pretty much a plot-wrecker, as well as stomping all over anyone who chose to invest in social skills.

Abjuration spells seem to be covered by the Warlock. Just as invocation/evocation are now represented by the wizard's spells.

I covered invocation/evocation before: they were nothing more than arcane and misused words. Abjuration was just more of the same. The wizard has plenty of defensive spells, as does the warlock and the cleric. Most of what were regarded as abjurations (magic circle, endure elements) have been done as rituals.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the main way to add more "wizardness" to your wizard is through the use of more rituals. Most of the wizard "neat" spells have been put in this category, including illusion and divination.

My problem is that a lot of the core rituals don't seem that good to me. They are very expensive, time consuming to cast, and often have a very short duration. The scrying ones are the biggest culprit, 5 rounds of scrying is garbage for the cost imo.

Also, I wish they weren't so hard on the 10 minute or time for rituals. There are some rituals that could be as simple as sprinkling some dust on an object and saying the right words. the problem is some rituals don't work as well when you realize the wizard has to prepare this loud ritual for 10 minute to get results.

 

[doctorhook]

I think the main way to add more "wizardness" to your wizard is through the use of more rituals. Most of the wizard "neat" spells have been put in this category, including illusion and divination.

My problem is that a lot of the core rituals don't seem that good to me. They are very expensive, time consuming to cast, and often have a very short duration. The scrying ones are the biggest culprit, 5 rounds of scrying is garbage for the cost imo.

Also, I wish they weren't so hard on the 10 minute or time for rituals. There are some rituals that could be as simple as sprinkling some dust on an object and saying the right words. the problem is some rituals don't work as well when you realize the wizard has to prepare this loud ritual for 10 minute to get results.

You've got a good point here, Stalker0. As a DM, I've been wondering why it's so hard to convince my players to try rituals, and I think this might be it.

I've got two players with Wizards and one with a Cleric, and each one has told me "there isn't really anything interesting to choose from" at 1st-level. This shocked me, but I suppose I can't judge what they find "interesting". One player has told me that hardly any of the rituals (of any level) look interesting, while another said that rituals were "flat-out useless". (The exception being Raise Dead, and a few others once the players understand their use; Enchant Item and the Portal rituals, for example.)

...Any suggestions? I'm wondering if perhaps a paragon- or epic-tier feat would help, allowing players to cast rituals in 1/10th the normal time (out of combat, probably). If that's too powerful, perhaps said feat could be restricted to providing that bonus to a single category of rituals (PH 299); Binding, Divination, Restoration, or Travel, for some examples.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Also, I wish they weren't so hard on the 10 minute or time for rituals. There are some rituals that could be as simple as sprinkling some dust on an object and saying the right words. the problem is some rituals don't work as well when you realize the wizard has to prepare this loud ritual for 10 minute to get results.

The problem is, everything under ten minutes already has a definition - powers. Furthermore, the wizard cantrips are basically what you describe - instant rituals. The ten minute duration is basically to ensure that they won't be used in combat.

 

[WhatGravitas]

The problem is, everything under ten minutes already has a definition - powers. Furthermore, the wizard cantrips are basically what you describe - instant rituals. The ten minute duration is basically to ensure that they won't be used in combat.

However, if they were quicker, it could nicely add tension.

Rituals taking 1 minute, i.e. 10 rounds would be combat-castable - but the caster would need to be defended during this time. I think that's pretty neat for a lot of scenarios. And since skill uses still take a single round only and don't cost money, I'm not sure that rituals would make skills unneeded (like Knock in previous editions).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Dausuul]

My problem is that a lot of the core rituals don't seem that good to me. They are very expensive, time consuming to cast, and often have a very short duration. The scrying ones are the biggest culprit, 5 rounds of scrying is garbage for the cost imo.

I'm pretty sure this is because WotC doesn't want anybody pulling "scry'n'die" in 4E. So they nerfed the hell out of scrying and teleportation rituals. They may have gone a bit too far - scrying durations could stand to be longer - but I'd much rather they go too far than not far enough. Too far can always be fixed with some judicious power creep, after all. Not far enough, and you're stuck with it.

My group hasn't really got into ritual casting, but it's early days and they haven't gotten to the good stuff yet. They have made use of comprehend language a couple of times, since they've been exploring a dwarven ruin and none of them knows Dwarvish.

 

[Hatmatter]

Alteration/Transmutation was always a crock - there were just so many spells that fell into the category.

Fair enough, but the spells for 4th ed. have not yet touched on the true alteration/transmutation spells. For example, turning an enemy's iron sword into a wooden stick and thereby reducing attack bonuses and damage. Or turning a reinforced door into something weaker. Certainly, there is a legitimate vacuum that can be filled here. My question is whether they are waiting for the elemental-powered classes to fill it.

Summoning may or may not be coming soon - I think it probably depends on how many issues they have with the bag of tricks mechanics.

I hope that is what they are waiting for. I guess my question remains. When they do appear, do you think they will be arcane or primal (I think that would be good for summoning natural creatures) or elemental (best for conjuring elementals)?

I seriously expect (and hope that) we'll see never the charm spell as it used to be ever again. Lets face it, it was always just far too good, and pretty much a plot-wrecker, as well as stomping all over anyone who chose to invest in social skills.

I appreciate hearing this perspective and do like the game design balance. But a fantasy role-playing game that does not intend to capture all of the charm spells and enslaving incantations present in literature (and I'm not only talking about TSR/WoC-published fantasy lit. here either) is really missing out on a significant aspect of fantasy. Perhaps they will come up with a mechanic that suits charm? I wonder if it will be a psionic power or arcane (which does not look likely given how soon the Arcane Powers Handbook is coming out)?

 

[Hatmatter]

But a fantasy role-playing game that does not intend to capture all of the charm spells and enslaving incantations present in literature (and I'm not only talking about TSR/WoC-published fantasy lit. here either) is really missing out on a significant aspect of fantasy.

Although it is a bit off-topic, following up from my post above, I think that one of the things that WoC did very well with in 4th ed. is adjusting the nature of the planes. The notion of the Feywild comes right out of Arthurian, and even pre-Arthurian Celtic mythology. Similarly, the Shadowfell works great with other non-specifically WoC/TSR fantasy ideas. The old system of the ethereal plane did not capture the spirit of fantasy literature quite as well. So, in terms of adaptability to other fantasy tropes, this made 4th ed. even more adaptable. I hope they similarly treat charm/enchantment incantations.