Mithril bucker, or light shield

[Pbartender]

I've always heard about mages with mithril bucklers (since the mithril negates the check penalty and casting failure chance). Is there a reason NOT to use a mithril light shield instead?

Simply put, even if you aren't a mage it boils down to this basic question...

Would you rather be able to use your off-hand for something without having to put the shield away, or would you rather be able to bash with the shield?

Most characters, and especially arcane spellcasters, will never even consider bashing someone with their shield... So in general, so might as well just stick with the buckler so you can have the hand free to use if you need it.

 

[Legildur]

Yet it allows movements precise enough to aim a bow or crossbow without penalty. It only penalizes "power moves" - not precision moves.

Do you wave your arm about (like when making a melee attack or casting a spell) when aiming a bow or crossbow?

 

[Elethiomel]

Do you wave your arm about (like when making a melee attack or casting a spell) when aiming a bow or crossbow?

This is a false question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?", because it equates armwaving used to hit someone over the head with a piece of metal with armwaving used to cast a spell. It isn't a given that you use the same force and speed to do these completely different things.

Look at skeet shooting, which does indeed require you to move your left arm precisely (and not slowly, either) to hit the target. Hitting a monk, flying dragon, or other fast creature that moves around the battle field would require much the same sort of movement.

Bottom line, though, we do not know what sort of handwaving exactly is needed for spellcasting. If we did, we'd be out casting magic missile. We do know, though, that it requires precise movement. We can surmise that it does not require forceful movement, because if it did weak casters would be at a disadvantage. The difference between aiming a ranged weapon at a moving enemy and hitting an enemy over the head with a piece of metal is that aiming requires precise movement, and hitting an enemy over the head with a piece of metal requires precise and forceful movement. That's why I think somatic spellcasting components are closer to aiming a ranged weapon than to attacking with a melee weapon.

 

[Legildur]

This is a false question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?",

A lousy analogy. Because answering your question dooms the responder either way. (besides, I believe the actual question should be 'When did you stop beating your wife?', at least that is how I have heard it).

Look at skeet shooting, which does indeed require you to move your left arm precisely (and not slowly, either) to hit the target.

I'm looking at the equipment table in the PHB and I don't see 12 gauge shotgun listed... nor skeets in the MM.

The difference between aiming a ranged weapon at a moving enemy and hitting an enemy over the head with a piece of metal is that aiming requires precise movement, and hitting an enemy over the head with a piece of metal requires precise and forceful movement.

Explain to me then Weapon Finesse.....

The ASF chance from a buckler applies even if the buckler is not in the casting hand!

A buckler imposes an attack penalty if you attack using the hand wearing the buckler - regardless if it is made of mithril or has a 0% ASF chance. Therefore we can deduce that it impedes the actions of that hand to some degree.

I argue that it is sufficient impedance to prevent "measured and precise movement of the hand".

PS For the record, I know a thing or two about shooting, being a military qualified marksman with competition medals for combat style shooting (moving targets etc). And I sure wouldn't want some weight on my arm when firing from the standing position.....

 

[Elethiomel]

A lousy analogy. Because answering your question dooms the responder either way. (besides, I believe the actual question should be 'When did you stop beating your wife?', at least that is how I have heard it).

Okay, if you say so.

I'm looking at the equipment table in the PHB and I don't see 12 gauge shotgun listed... nor skeets in the MM.

True, but why skip over the bit where I liken this to fast moving monsters?

Explain to me then Weapon Finesse.....

A Weapon Finesse user is still penalised for a low strength score. And attacking with weapon finesse is still precise, forceful movement. That you use your dexterity for more precise placement of the strike doesn't change that you're still trying to do damage to whatever you're hitting. And not through channeling magical energies, but through making whatever you're holding in your hand crush/penetrate/cut through an enemy.

The ASF chance from a buckler applies even if the buckler is not in the casting hand!

Yes, which to me suggests that spell gestures are done with both arms and the whole upper body. Hence, when the buckler is made out of mithral and thus has no ASF, it is judged to not hinder this "waving around" part of spellcasting, no matter which arm it is on. This means that all that is required now is that the hand is free to make finger gestures to go along with the waving around. And guess what? The buckler can't possibly interfere with these finger gestures as it's strapped to the forearm.

A buckler imposes an attack penalty if you attack using the hand wearing the buckler - regardless if it is made of mithril or has a 0% ASF chance. Therefore we can deduce that it impedes the actions of that hand to some degree.

I argue that it is sufficient impedance to prevent "measured and precise movement of the hand".

"impediment". And I disagree, for the reasons I've already given.

PS For the record, I know a thing or two about shooting, being a military qualified marksman with competition medals for combat style shooting (moving targets etc). And I sure wouldn't want some weight on my arm when firing from the standing position.....

Well, I am also a military qualified marksman. Doesn't mean I know about shooting at fast-moving targets.
As for you not wanting "some weight on your arm when firing from the standing position"? Well, there are actual unambiguous rules for this in DnD. They say that using a buckler doesn't interfere with attacks with a bow or crossbow.
I know that I am using real-world examples to argue for my interpretation of the spellcasting rules. But that is because that's what's in question here - and I also believe I have given rule-based reasons for my argument. If you think that bucklers should give a penalty to ranged attacks, that's properly a different discussion.

 

[Legildur]

True, but why skip over the bit where I liken this to fast moving monsters?

Because there is nothing in the rules to deal with penalties for faster moving creatures - such as dragons.... a flying dragon moves substantially quicker than a dwarf.

Yes, which to me suggests that spell gestures are done with both arms and the whole upper body. Hence, when the buckler is made out of mithral and thus has no ASF, it is judged to not hinder this "waving around" part of spellcasting, no matter which arm it is on. This means that all that is required now is that the hand is free to make finger gestures to go along with the waving around. And guess what? The buckler can't possibly interfere with these finger gestures as it's strapped to the forearm.

Now I think you are just speculating as to what the somatic components actually mean.

Well, I am also a military qualified marksman. Doesn't mean I know about shooting at fast-moving targets.

LOL! Go figure. What are the odds? Anyway, you guys must have a different definition of marskman, because I can assure you that our tests require a range of deliberate, rapid and snap shooting at different ranges, target sizes, and at stationary targets and at targets moving at various speeds.

I know that I am using real-world examples to argue for my interpretation of the spellcasting rules. But that is because that's what's in question here - and I also believe I have given rule-based reasons for my argument. If you think that bucklers should give a penalty to ranged attacks, that's properly a different discussion.

Well, we are both guilty of using real world here. And I also believe I have rules-based reasons for my argument.

Additionally, the SRD says:

Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component.

and I note that all standard shields and armor carry an ASF chance.

I was about to add some argument that the lighter armors don't even cover the arms and yet impede the "measured and precise movement of the hand", and therefore a shield on the casting arm certainly would do so if it affects weapon use, but the SRD lacks the description (or pictures) of those armors and so I don't know if I have a point until I can consult the PHB.

 

[Elethiomel]

Because there is nothing in the rules to deal with penalties for faster moving creatures - such as dragons.... a flying dragon moves substantially quicker than a dwarf.

Which means that there aren't any penalties for this, per the rules.

Now I think you are just speculating as to what the somatic components actually mean.

I'm extrapolating from the rules, which is different from pure speculation in that I've used actual argument for each step in the process.

LOL! Go figure. What are the odds? Anyway, you guys must have a different definition of marskman, because I can assure you that our tests require a range of deliberate, rapid and snap shooting at different ranges, target sizes, and at stationary targets and at targets moving at various speeds.

It's a pity quotes are all italicised so italic emphasis is not preserved. Let me do the emphasis different now. I was discussing fast-moving targets. When I added emphasis it was to indicate speed like a double-moving monk at less than 30', which is pretty damn fast in degrees/sec.

Well, we are both guilty of using real world here. And I also believe I have rules-based reasons for my argument.

I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree then.

I was about to add some argument that the lighter armors don't even cover the arms and yet impede the "measured and precise movement of the hand", and therefore a shield on the casting arm certainly would do so if it affects weapon use, but the SRD lacks the description (or pictures) of those armors and so I don't know if I have a point until I can consult the PHB.

All the armor depicted in the PHB has some sort of arm coverage. The lightest coverage is by the chain shirt, which has arms comparable to a T-shirt, but the right-hand-side shoulder has hard coverage on it and could be said to impede arm movement somewhat.

 

[Felix]

Are you saying that a forearm and hand are not connected? Anatomically speaking, of course..... I want you to say it.

I never would say it, because two connected things may be unique to each other. The two of us are connected via the internet, no? (Though I suppose the Hivemind may have something to say on that score... )

You suggest that if two things are connected then they are perforce the same? My hair is connected, though rather less of late, to my kneecaps. That doesn't make them the same thing. And if being connected makes things the same, then where do you draw the line? Remember the old song, "Hand bone connected to the arm bone / arm bone connected to the shoulder bone..." So your argument would seem to say:

Hand = Forearm
Forearm = Upper arm
Upper arm = Shoulder
Shoulder = Spine
Spine = Hips
Hips = Femur
Femur = Tibia
Tibia = Ankle
Ankle = Foot

Hand = Foot?

Where does your transitive property of anatomy stop?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the "measured and precise movement of the hand" required for a somatic component is not possible with a buckler on the arm because of the weight, as indicated by the attack penalty for wielding a weapon in the buckler hand.

The buckler imposes a -1 penalty because of the weight? Where is this from?

This restriction is over and above the ASF chance imposed for having a buckler ready on either arm, regardless of which one you may decide to choose to cast with, which can obviously be negated through the use of mithril.

From whence does this restriction come if it is not merely you reading it into the source material? The restriction is only necessary if hand = forearm, with that we repar to the above argument.

You'll note that making a buckler out of mithril does not remove the attack penalty, only the Armor Check penalty. (The attack penalty is not derived from the Armor Check penalty as you made out). Therefore the weight is still a factor.

A Mithril buckler weights 2.5lbs. Gauntlets of Ogre Power weigh 4lbs. The buckler imposes a -1 to attack while the gauntlets do not. This suggests that it is not the weight but rather something else that imposes the penalty.

 

[donremus]

I'd say the hand is needed for the "finger play" bit of the somatic component - not the entire somatic component, or casters could walk around in full plate with no penalty. As I see it you need to move pretty much your whole upper body precisely to cast spells - or why do breastplates have a whopping 25% spell failure even if the PHB depiction shows hardly any coverage on the right arm? And why would a shield in the off hand give ASF if only one arm was needed to cast spells? No, it says you need a free hand, not a free arm. An item with ASF 0 doesn't hamper the overall body movements of spell casting, and so shouldn't block spellcasting with whatever hands are attached to any limbs it may cover.

D&D restrictions on armour/shields & spellcasting are about game balance, end of story. We can't try to reason about realistic spellcasting when we don't realistically know what it involves. Just accept the rules as is, they are there for game balance, not realism.

 

[Elethiomel]

D&D restrictions on armour/shields & spellcasting are about game balance, end of story. We can't try to reason about realistic spellcasting when we don't realistically know what it involves. Just accept the rules as is, they are there for game balance, not realism.

I know this. But I also know that the rules state you need a hand free for spellcasting. The rules say the buckler is strapped to the forearm. So I don't see how the rules say it's impossible to cast spells with the hand attached to the arm the buckler is strapped to.
Other people disagree.
Hence it becomes a rules interpretation issue. Rules interpretation issues tend to draw their arguments from other rules and their generally accepted interpretation, articles published by WotC, and, yes, the perceived physics of how the game world works.