Mixing grapple attempts with natural attacks

[Wanderer20]

I have a question: take a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as a dire tiger, 2 claws & 1 bite) and whose BaB (+12) allows it to make 3 grapple attempts/checks with a full attack action.

Can this creature make a full attack action that is a mix of natural attacks and grapple attempts/checks? for instance, instead of 2 claws, 1 bite can it do 1 bite, 2 grapple checks or 1 grapple check, 1 bite, 1 claw?

(For now we ruled that such tiger can make either its full natural attacks array OR the number of grapple checks its BaB allows it)

What if the number of allowed grapple attacks is different from the number of natural weapons?

 

[Mordane76]

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

When a monster uses a special attack option, such as trip or sunder, must it make the attack with its primary natural weapon? Are there any limits on which natural weapons can be used in a trip or sunder attack? When a monster has multiple natural weapons, can it use each of those weapons to make trip or sunder attacks?

A monster with natural weaponry doesn’t need to use its primary natural weapon to make sunder or trip attacks. If it uses a secondary weapon, however, the penalty for a secondary weapon applies to the attack (–5 or –2 with the Multiattack feat). In the case of sunder, the secondary weapon penalty applies to the opposed attack roll the creature makes to accomplish the sunder attack. In the case of a trip attack, the secondary weapon penalty applies to the melee touch attack roll the creature makes to start the trip attack. A creature can make a trip attack with just about any natural weapon, although the DM must exercise some common sense in the matter. Claw and bite attacks are excellent for trip attempts, as are tentacle attacks. Since tripping in the D&D game involves grabbing a foe and pulling him down, stings, gores, hooves, and most slam attacks should not work for tripping (although tail slaps work).

A monster with several natural weapons can make a sunder or trip attack with each one, provided that it uses the full attack action, and its natural weaponry is useful for the attack in question.

According to these sections of text, the creature should be able to intersperse its grapple attempts, as long as the natural weapon being used is capable of performing the special attack action required (in this case grapple). Remember that monsters do not gain iterative attacks based on BAB - their attack patterns are developed as part of their write-up.

 

[Wanderer20]

Thanks for your answer, it was pretty clear and useful.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Thanks for your answer, it was pretty clear and useful.

Hey, welcome to the boards!

 

[Wanderer20]

Thanks you

 

[Mordane76]

Thanks for your answer, it was pretty clear and useful.

You're welcome...

 

[Caliban]

According to these sections of text, the creature should be able to intersperse its grapple attempts, as long as the natural weapon being used is capable of performing the special attack action required (in this case grapple). Remember that monsters do not gain iterative attacks based on BAB - their attack patterns are developed as part of their write-up.

I'm afraid this isn't quite correct. The second section of text you quoted is referring to trip and sunder attacks. The first section of text is specific to grappling. Grappling is an entirely different sort of attack, with it's own wierd little subset of rules that apply to it.

Grapple attempts do not use natural weapons unless the creature has Improved Grab.

Grappling is not a natural weapon, and does not do natural weapon damage, unless the creature has Improved Grab.

Grapple attempts are always based off of Iterative BAB, not your number of natural weapon attacks. (Yes, this means that some creatures will have a completely different number of grapple attempts and natural attacks.)

Once a creature initiates a grapple, it is no longer using it's natural weapon attack routine, it's using the grapple attempts, which are based off of it's BAB. It can be confusing.

 

[Thanee]

As to the original question... outside of grapple, the tiger can use any attack to initiate a grapple. These can be freely mixed with natural weapon attacks (unless the monster has Improved Grab, standard rules apply, including provoking an AoO - usually only monsters (creatures fighting with natural weapons) with Improved Grab really use grapple techniques). Once grapple is successfully initiated, any other attacks for that turn are wasted and cannot be performed anymore (because you cannot do normal attacks in a grapple, only special grapple actions and those are based on your iterative BAB attacks, but you did not use iterative BAB attacks that turn).

Next round you switch to iterative BAB attacks and do grapple actions like any other grappling combatant.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pinotage]

Next round you switch to iterative BAB attacks and do grapple actions like any other grappling combatant.

Bye
Thanee

As far as I understand it, once you're in the grapple you can still attack with a natural weapon as a grapple action, taking -4 to hit on each of those attacks. So a tiger with +12 BAB that is grappling can still claw, claw, bite but it would take -4 penalty on all those attacks using natural weapons. Or it could attempt to pin, attempt to do damage and bite, as long as you use the correct modifiers for using primary or secondary natural weapons. Does that sound right?

Pinotage

 

[kjenks]

As far as I understand it, once you're in the grapple you can still attack with a natural weapon as a grapple action, taking -4 to hit on each of those attacks. So a tiger with +12 BAB that is grappling can still claw, claw, bite but it would take -4 penalty on all those attacks using natural weapons. Or it could attempt to pin, attempt to do damage and bite, as long as you use the correct modifiers for using primary or secondary natural weapons. Does that sound right?

Pinotage

No. Bad kitty. You may not use two (or more) weapons while grappling. That includes your claw/claw/bite.

Bad kitty! Hey! Stop that! AAARGH!