MM3 minion damage expressions?

[the Jester]

Has anyone compiled and examined minion damage in the MM3/MV design space?

Until yesterday I'd assumed that the updated damage in DMG2 was still current, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I can do the work of compiling and examining myself, but I don't have all the MM3 design-style monster books yet, so I may miss things. Has anyone already done the work?

Cheers!

 

[Zaran]

I am assuming you are asking the question because you want to make you own. I make my minions by taking an existing monster and havin them do minimum damage. For example a monster that does 2d6+5 damage minionized would do 7 damage and, of course, have 1 hit point. I've made some interesting minions this way.

 

[the Jester]

Thanks, Robtheman, that had what I was looking for!

So say I give a minion an ability that brings it back after it dies (once; view this as a death cultist turning undead).

If its standard expected damage is 10, does it sound reasonable for the minion in question to do 7 damage (given that it may very well get an extra attack in because of its come back to life power)?

Does that sound too high or too low or about right?

If it matters, it's a minion soldier, and once it is undead its attack also immobilizes.

 

[Psikus]

I worked out a damage formula from MM3 minion data while ago. It is different from the one in DMG2, which was to be expected... but what surprised me is that it seems like MM2 minions also follow it, so the DMG2 formulas were obsolete on release! It is the following:

Minion Damage (normal) = 4+ Level/2

Change it to (5+ 0.6*Level) for high (brute) expressions, and 3+0.4*level for weak (area) attacks. You can find discussion and some nice charts in my blog.

This was made before Monster Vault, and I didn't bother to repeat the experiment with MV data, but after reading it, it looks like most minions in the book follow the same progression

 

[Dalamar]

If minion damage is 4+one-half level, then its easy to remember as minion damage being half of the average damage of a normal monster, isn't it? Then add the normal +25% etc modifiers for roles and attack types and such.

 

[the Jester]

I fear my current question is being overlooked!

So say I give a minion an ability that brings it back after it dies (once; view this as a death cultist turning undead).

If its standard expected damage is 10, does it sound reasonable for the minion in question to do 7 damage (given that it may very well get an extra attack in because of its come back to life power)?

Does that sound too high or too low or about right?

If it matters, it's a minion soldier, and once it is undead its attack also immobilizes.

 

[Psikus]

I fear my current question is being overlooked!


So say I give a minion an ability that brings it back after it dies (once; view this as a death cultist turning undead).

Well, there is not a set formula for that, but we can look at similar existing monsters. Staying alive for a single extra turn (or getting off a free attack) is pretty much free. There is also precedent of monsters that can, unreliably, prevent their death once per encounter (Zombie Shambler, from Monster Vault, ignores death on a 15+ d20 roll) - again with no damage penalty. What you suggest (I assume the cultist comes back for good, no rolls required) is a step above both examples, so it would certainly require a drawback.

Personally, I'd go for treating each incarnation of the monster as two separate minions with standard stats - applying the XP reward for both. This is the option that maps most accurately to existing monster models, though I can see how some could find it unsatisfying. Barring that, if you treated them as a single monster, I might cut their damage even further (say, 50%).

 

[Robtheman]

If it were up to me I would follow the direction Psikus is headed.

From a flavor and fun aspect I'd like to see Minions come back as a bit more challenging (immobilize until end of minions next turn). This could let you turn up the heat during the mid to late stages of an encounter and really surprise your PCs. You could remove the minion from the battle mat and then have it rise after skipping it's turn once.

In that case I'd keep the damage the same, add immobilize and not feel bad about it at all.

To add to your theme, perhaps it latches on and gnaws on the PC, then dies soon after. This would function much like Immobilize until End of Next Turn, but you could just tell the player they were Immobilized, no save, no end in sight until the monster is dead.

When the first one dies on it's own they'd understand the mechanic, but at least for one round the threat of not knowing ought to get them to really respect those Minions as more than a speed bump.

 

[M8]

Thanks, Robtheman, that had what I was looking for!

So say I give a minion an ability that brings it back after it dies (once; view this as a death cultist turning undead).

In this Issue I would handle the two monsters separately, adding their XP to the encounter.
The minion has a slight advantage in this case, because he is already in the heat of the battle when he "spawns", (and doesn't have to move into it) but if you give him one turn to change into a minion, I'd guess that would be nullified.

Another way:
You could just create a monster, remove a portion of his HP (like one std avg. dmg from a striker Player Character of the appropriate level), and resurrect him as a minion with the same stats.

Third way:
Create a normal monster, with an encounter ability that deals x dmg.
Remove this encounter ability from him, and create the minion with x dmg.