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(MME) Is it just me...

Incenjucar

Legend
Personally, I'm not fond of being forced into additional decisions. Having to create lists of banned items and feats (Dragonmarks, I'm looking at you) and so forth does not improve my DMing experience.

It would be nice if such things were at least kept to the "Rare" category since that's the "Only if the DM specifically wants you to have it" column, while Uncommon is the "Just don't expect thirty of them" column.
 
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cignus_pfaccari

First Post
Well, maybe you can explain why Hide Expertise got nerfed then?

What irritated me about that was that it appeared in its gloriously brutal form almost immediately after they nerfed Avengers' AC for the same damn reason. While I was playing an avenger.

It certainly would be nice if they, say, kept track of things like that, and didn't appear to keep changing their minds, or, more likely, not entirely thinking about it.

The problem isn't adding 2 to the guy with a low AC to get him to not-quite-so-low, it is when you have a HIGH AC light armor character, which is MUCH easier to build than you seem to think.

My quick modeling was taken into account at 28th level, between a paladin and an avenger, each using a generic +6 armor from PHB, with one feat each devoted to AC (Unarmored Agility vs Plate Specialization). The avenger started at an 18 in Dex or Int, and the paladin had a shield. The avenger then got a +2 shirt.

They both wound up at the same AC. Which, for an off-defender, I don't have a problem with, especially if they're off fighting something in the corner that's not being marked by the defender.

Now, a swordmage or warden who makes himself relatively unhittable might well engineer himself out of a job; if the monsters can't reliably hit him, there's no reason not to go after the other party members, even if they're marked.

Sorry, HANDS DOWN this item is borked, it screws with basic game balance on AC.

See, that's the thing. I don't think that's an issue. Looking back at my light AC characters (avenger and sorcerer*), they really didn't eat terribly many attacks on AC, and the frequency with which they did went down as we went up in level as things instead started to more often NEEM or blast or mesmerize us rather than hit us with a big tree trunk. And especially once you get into late paragon and epic, things start just raining aura damage, which ignores defenses entirely. Which really made me think that WotC hates melee types. But that's a rant for another day.

* - Caveat: As a pursuit avenger, I typically went and hounded the enemy artillery or lurkers, both of whom tend to ignore AC (...while not running away, damn them), and the sorcerer hid behind the meat shields and thus was mostly subject to neeming attacks anyway. So my experience might well be atypical.

Giving one of these to our early paragon monk, who already has done some decent AC stacking IIRC, just means he might get missed once more in a session. He already gets in trouble fairly frequently (something about charging in first while shrieking out DIE MAMMALS!), so a +1 to AC wouldn't really prevent that.


Now, personally, I can certainly see making it Rare, since that puts it even further into DM Fiat territory, and the Fellowship certainly reacted as if it were rare. I might also switch it to Paragon/Epic and +1/+2, but keep it unslotted. OTOH, that leaves it both weaker and more boring, so I'd add in a Daily (or, hell, an Encounter) ability to negate a crit and turn it into a normal hit, as that also mimics the item from the book.

Brad
 


darkdragoon

First Post
The thing about flail expertise is that it is easier/quicker to obtain than the previous methods of "I knock things down a lot." Flail Strike is also very strong.
it's +1 AC/tier. That's it. It just gets the AC of the light armor wearers up a little higher than it otherwise would be.

1 AC is the difference between scale and plate. Hide wearers with a good secondary and this now have the best AC you can get. Yet the ones that actually do have AC issues like Shamans are still behind. So it doesn't do what it is 'supposed' to do. Also, it is a wondrous item with a static bonus. Wasn't the new design supposed to be avoiding these types of items? Making a slightly bigger Gauntlets of Ogre Power is not very exciting either.
 
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It is uncommon... so it should be ok.
Also there already are chain armors that have a +3 item bonuse to AC out, so heavy armored characters don´t need to complain.

I also like that this item exists, even if it just fills the role in my CB to "fix" hide armor expertise! (+2/+3/+4/+5)
 

darkdragoon

First Post
Most of the things you'd want to have are uncommon or rare, and they give more gold/residuum if you get rid of them. It's a pretty hollow distinction. Agile is a. more restrictive b. available to light armor users now via Ringmail.
 

Mirtek

Hero
It just gets the AC of the light armor wearers up a little higher than it otherwise would be.
Except that in 4e the AC is no longer tied to the armor category. Many light armor wearers already match and even exceed the AC of the most heaviest armor + shield. With this item bonus the just leave them even more behind.

The item should work for all kind of armors, then it would at least just general power creep and not simply making the heavy armor wearers feel stupid for lugging around that much metal
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
Yeah, the light vs heavy armor thing has been unbalanced from the beginning.

Heavy armor should be one or two points higher from the base, to make up for what light armor people can do.

I know WOTC was worried it would break the game to have ACs too far apart, but with the penalties heavy armor users have, there needs to be more of a change.

Yes, I do know a few classes really get low ACs, like shamans.
 

And after all, it is still uncommon... so it is not the PC´s decision if they get the chainshirt...
I personally like this item. just for its existence.

The Heavy armor, light armor issues started with 3.x, not 4e. But 4e did not make it better, rather worse to be honest...
the max dex modificator actually made all armors cap at about the same point, but especially in the beginning, heavy armor users were quite in front...
 

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