Mobility + Bull Rush + AoO

[SnowDog]

Hi all --

This came up in another thread, and I appreciate the responses I got (especially from DMFTodd who made me see things in a new way). I'm hoping with a new message title I can get a little more input and come to a decision with my DM about how to handle this next time it comes up.

The basic question: when provoking an AoO due to initiating a bull rush, does your mobility bonus give you a +4 AC?

Here's the reasoning I've heard in support of "No."

1. Starting a bull rush is one of those things that triggers AoO. It has nothing to do with movement, hence no +4 AC. (Source: when listing actions and whether they trigger AoO, it says Bull Rush: Yes)
2. In order to start a bull rush, you must move from a threatened space, also likely (but not always) triggering AoO. (Source: PHB/SRD says "moving in this way will likely trigger an AoO...")

This means that most of the time, if you try to do a bull rush, you create two oppurtunities for AoO. The first, caused by your motion, would benefit from Mobility. The second, caused by initiating the Bull Rush, would not.

Is this the way most people run this? The rules aren't exactly clear -- I was convinced that the only opportunity involved in a Bull Rush was the one caused by the movement (hence the Mobility +4 AC applying) until I saw DMFTodd's reasoning. I'm beginning to come around, but would like one or two more comments on the issue before I accept it

Thanks in advance.

 

[Artoomis]

Initiating a Bull Rush: First, the combatant moves into the defender's space. Moving in this way provokes an attack of opportunity from each foe that threatens the combatant, probably including the defender. Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against the combatant during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than the combatant against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the combatant.

It's pretty clear from this quote that it's the movment that generates the AoO and there are NOT two AoO opportuntuies involved here. What makes it clear is the line about 25% of hitting the defender. It seems pretty clear to me that there is only one AoO opportunity here.

In the context of this paragraph it's also pretty clear that entry that states Bull Rush provoks an AoO is refering to this paragraph.

With that context in mind, let us re-examine the question of Mobility. It seems you get the +4 AC from mobility - and you also get the benenfit of having AoO's from anyone other than the defender targeting the defender (25%).

This makes it a reasonably low risk move.

 

[IceBear]

I agree with Artoomis.

The only reason they list Bull Rush: Yes in the chart is because you will ALWAYS draw an AoO for attempting a Bull Rush, but that's because of the movement involved.

IceBear

 

[gamecat]

Rush is defined as "MOVING fast, esp. in a hurry."

Mobility gives a +4 ac bonus against AoOs provoked by MOVEMENT

 

[Caliban]

I agree, Mobility grants +4 AC against the AoO triggered by the Bull Rush. (In fact I have a dwarven fighter with Mobility who uses this tactic a lot.)

 

[Antikinesis]

Hi all --

. . .
This means that most of the time, if you try to do a bull rush, you create two oppurtunities for AoO. The first, caused by your motion, would benefit from Mobility. The second, caused by initiating the Bull Rush, would not.
. . .

By the rules, the defender can't take more than one AoO against a single combatant in a round, anyway. There is no second AoO.

AK

 

[jontherev]

I agree with Artoomis.

The only reason they list Bull Rush: Yes in the chart is because you will ALWAYS draw an AoO for attempting a Bull Rush, but that's because of the movement involved.

IceBear

I agree that the text seems to say that it's movement related. One other caveat before I go further...I don't have the PHB handy, so I'm assuming the chart does say yes. IIRC, if it says YES in that chart, that means that the action itself provokes the AoO, NOT becase of the movement involved. And in answer to your comment IceBear, what about 5' steps? You could easily move 5' and not draw an AoO due to movement from anyone!

What I can't remember is if you draw an AoO (5' step notwithstanding) for going into someone's square. I would think so. However, what if you tumbled while bullrushing? Would this totally bypass the AoO?

If you look at the chart in the PHB, if an action itself does NOT provoke an AoO, but does sometimes due to movement, it says MAYBE in the column. I'll check again in a couple hours when I am reunited with PHB, but this is how I thought the chart read. I'm sure someone will prove me wrong beforehand though since I'm relying on memory here.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

If you have both improved bull rush and mobility, it becomes a highly useful tactic.

What we need now are rules for pushing people down the stairs, over a balcony, under the hoofs of the horse of the paladin etc.

 

[IceBear]

You bring up a good point. I thought you had to charge to make a Bull Rush, but I see that you do not. So, it is possible that it really is the Bull Rush that causes the AoO and not the movement. However, the text on Bull Rush states that it is the movement that causes the AoO, so I would allow Mobility to work.

IceBear

 

[jontherev]

You bring up a good point. I thought you had to charge to make a Bull Rush, but I see that you do not. So, it is possible that it really is the Bull Rush that causes the AoO and not the movement. However, the text on Bull Rush states that it is the movement that causes the AoO, so I would allow Mobility to work.

IceBear

That's fair. I'm certainly not arguing that that would be unbalanced, just against the rules. I think it's either meant to be flavor text for the unusual movement (similar to making an unarmed strike w/o the feat), OR an error by WotC.