Modifying "pre-constructed" items

[Pazu]

How far can someone go in modifying weapons and armor that are "usually preconstructed with specific abilities"?

I imagine it's a fairly simple matter when the character just wants to improve his +3 frost brand sword to +4. How about if a character wants to make his +2 greatsword into a +3 frost brand instead? What if a character with a +1 two-bladed sword wants to make one end into a frost brand and the other end into a flame tongue? Can two "usually preconstructed" abilities be combined, e.g. making a frost brand into a nine lives stealer frost brand?

I don't see anything that explicitly forbids any of the above (assuming all the necessary funds, materials, and spells are available). Have I missed something?

Thanks!

 

[dcollins]

Agree that all of those are permitted. Last paragraph in my DMG, under "Adding New Abilities", has an example of improving a +1 longsword -> to a +2 vorpal longsword.

 

[Pazu]

Agree that all of those are permitted. Last paragraph in my DMG, under "Adding New Abilities", has an example of improving a +1 longsword -> to a +2 vorpal longsword.

Thanks for the quick response! The reason I used the examples I did was because, unlike the vorpal example in the DMG, the weapons I mentioned all had special abilities that weren't from the itemized list of enhancements (e.g. frost, shocking, wounding, etc.) but were implied to be less...standardized, for lack of a better term.

In a similar vein, I assume that non-standard enhancements (like the frost brand's ability to extinguish fires) are assessed as flat increases to cost/price, rather than as enhancement equivalents (i.e. equal to a +1, +2, or whatever). So if you wanted to make a +2 frost brand warhammer from scratch, you would figure the cost by taking the cost of the +3 frost brand sword listed in the DMG, subtract the cost of the +3 greatsword, and add the cost of a +2 warhammer (I don't have the book here, so I can't quote numbers, sorry)? And if you wanted to add the frost brand power to your existing +5 scythe, you would need to pay the cost of the original +3 frost brand sword minus the cost of the +3 greatsword?

 

[dcollins]

The reason I used the examples I did was because, unlike the vorpal example in the DMG, the weapons I mentioned all had special abilities that weren't from the itemized list of enhancements (e.g. frost, shocking, wounding, etc.) but were implied to be less...standardized, for lack of a better term.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, I did miss that. The answer to that question would have to be "no, not by the RAW". It would require the DM to House Rule/ extrapolate/ price these abilities specially for that purpose.

 

[Pazu]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, I did miss that. The answer to that question would have to be "no, not by the RAW". It would require the DM to House Rule/ extrapolate/ price these abilities specially for that purpose.

Hmm. But, since the DMG specifically lists cost and price for the items in question (such as the frost brand sword, since I keep bringing it up), wouldn't the cost/price of the frost brand enchantment simply be the stated amount minus the cost of the actual +3 sword?

 

[Infiniti2000]

But, since the DMG specifically lists cost and price for the items in question (such as the frost brand sword, since I keep bringing it up), wouldn't the cost/price of the frost brand enchantment simply be the stated amount minus the cost of the actual +3 sword?

Not necessarily. The cost of a +3 sword could be the starting point and as the designer (likely Monte Cook) decided on the final cost for a Frost Brand, the +3 portion was taken into account. Meaning, the +3 is a guideline and whether the specific item follows a formula is unknown. It's likely you could just increase it to a +4 weapon at the cost of +4 minus +3, but maybe not.

 

[dcollins]

...wouldn't the cost/price of the frost brand enchantment simply be the stated amount minus the cost of the actual +3 sword?

I'd have to call that a "DM House Rule/ extrapolation/ special price for that ability".

As one alternative, I'd lean towards calling it "practically the same as +5 total bonus" and adjusting from there.

 

[RuminDange]

Since the Frost Brand is a +3 Frost Greatsword you can calculate the cost based on the item creation guidelines for this part:
+3 Weapon
+1 for Frost
+350gp for Masterwork Greatsword
total: 32,350 gp

Now the next part is the Protection from Fire that absorbs the first 10 points of fire damage each round. This is equal to the effects of a Ring of Minor Elemental Resistance that costs 12,000gp, but when added to the sword it doesn't take a ring spot like normal so do you double it or use the basis of the spell?
If you double it adds 24,000gp to the cost for a total of 56,530 gp (over the total cost of the Frost Brand.
If you basis it on adding the spell it would be 3 x 5 x 2000 = 30,000 gp to add for a total of 62,350 gp (still over the total cost of the Frost Brand).
If you add just 12,000 to the cost the you have 44,350 gp for the cost of the Frost Brand, this is under the cost, but is it the right way?

Next you have to price the dispelling/ putting out fires. How do you price this power?
If you use Dispel Magic at 14th level casting ability (which technically by the spell isn't possible since it is limited to +10 caster level, but Dispel Magic is the only other notable spell in the creation of Frost Brand.) The cost would be 3 x 14 x 2000 = 84,000 gp but since it only works on fire maybe we can give it the 30% discount dropping the price to 58,800 gp. This is going to put the price of the Frost Brand way over the listed cost.

So the trick is to figure out how to price these two abilities and that just takes the DM saying how for sure.

My suggestion would be the following:
+3 Weapon Enhancement
+1 Frost Enhancement
350 Masterwork Greatsword
12,000 gp for 10 points of Fire Protection per round, since it is only good while being wielded
9,625 gp for Dispelling fire ability.
for a total of (4 * 4 * 2000) + 350 + 12000 + 9635 = 54,475 gp

Did I miss anything?

Now if you want to increase the weapon, add another ability it should be easy to do.

RD

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

The simplest way I can think of doing this is

Find the cost fo the weapon as is, and find the next closest enhancement bonus Above the cost of the weapon, then pay for the cost of the upgrade normally by paying the difference of current max cost and the next level

So yes your paying over the odds slightly, but your also getting a quite unique weapon, and tailoring your equipment away from standard procedure should be more costly. At this levle of price, I woudlnt worry about the cost of the orignal type of weapon, 15g or 50g is immaterial at this stage.

Just make sure that pre-epic, you dont go over the price of a +10 enchant and you can thoeretically have anything

For example, I have just started a paladin, at 3rd level he is taking the Ancestral Relic Feat, and will track down a stolen family heirloom, in this case, a warhammer.

I will be using the ancestral relic rules to get this warhammer to +5 at 13th level, then at 16, hopefully converting it to a Holy Avenger, paying the difference in cost between is current +5 to that of a holy avenger, no reason a warhammer cant be a holy avenger, and the weapon will have raised in power as the paladin did, so it sort of fits.

Now post 16, lets say I want to add the blunt verion of Keen to my warhammer, or flaming strike, I find the closest enchancement bonus of the list rounding up, to the price I payed for my holy avenger, and start any extra enhancement bonus' based of this higher price.

I pay over the odds for my weapon, but in the long run, I have a paladin with a holy avenger of ghost touch and disruption, heavily over priced, but worth it in the long run for a truley unique item, that represents the paladin who wields it

Feegle Out

[edit]I R fxed my spelunking mistakes[/edit]

 

[Pazu]

Thanks for the replies! (I was wondering if anyone else even found this topic interesting...)

RuminDange: Thanks for breaking out the numbers like that. I was flipping through the DMG the other night and thinking about posting some numerical extrapolations myself, but alas, real life intruded, so it may be another few days before I do it...

Nac_Mac_Feegle: Great ideas! Sounds like I was having similar thoughts to yours, in that I was thinking that an interesting style of treasure acquisition in a campaign would involve upgrading characters' existing weapons (assuming they were of special significance) rather than just tossing the old ones in favor of stronger new ones. Storywise, if your character inherits (at first level) a masterwork longsword that's a family heirloom, is he really going to pitch it as soon as he finds a +1 magical longsword?